Thanissaro: translating vicara as "evaluation" ???

[DooDoot]

Dear Pali gurus

The Venerable Thanissaro has translated "vicara" as "evaluation". I notice this translation has support in the Vicāralakkhaṇapañha, however, I cannot find any support in the suttas. Generally, in the suttas, I have only found the word "vicara" to mean "wandering" or found it to mean thought affected by craving (such as in MN 18; DN 22; etc).

Further, SN 46.3 (and similar suttas) appears to use the term "pa-vicara" or verb "pavicarati" when referring to exploring or evaluating with wisdom, as follows:

As they live mindfully in this way they investigate, explore and inquire into that teaching with wisdom.

So tathā sato viharanto taṁ dhammaṁ paññāya pavicinati pavicarati parivīmaṁsamāpajjati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/sujato

Similarly, MN 19 uses another "vicara" compound with an intensifier or direction prefix, namely, anuvicārayati.

If I were to keep on thinking and considering this all night …

Rattiñcepi naṁ, bhikkhave, anuvitakkeyyaṁ anuvicāreyyaṁ, neva tatonidānaṁ bhayaṁ samanupassāmi.
all day …
.
Still, thinking and considering for too long would tire my body.
Api ca kho me aticiraṁ anuvitakkayato anuvicārayato kāyo kilameyya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/sujato

Are there any suttas using the word "vicara" to refer to the "wise evaluation" Thanissaro suggests?

Thank you

You’re thinking about the breath and you’re evaluating the breath: Where is it comfortable? Where is it not comfortable? If it’s not comfortable, what can you do to change it? If it is comfortable, what can you do to maintain it? And then what do you do with that pleasure? How do you get it to spread through the body?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Medit ... n0033.html

[Assaji]

Hi DooDoot,

Are there any suttas using the word "vicara" to refer to the "wise evaluation" Thanissaro suggests?

Since "vicāra" is not expressly defined in the suttas, it makes little sense to infer its meaning from the suttas alone. Too many words would also fit the context. In exploring the meanings of the Pali terms, one can go only as early as the earliest definitions allow - in this case, Peṭakopadesa 7.72. Attempts to go earlier are mostly guesswork.

[DooDoot]

Since "vicāra" is not expressly defined in the suttas, it makes little sense to infer its meaning from the suttas alone. Too many words would also fit the context. In exploring the meanings of the Pali terms, one can go only as early as the earliest definitions allow - in this case, Peṭakopadesa 7.72. Attempts to go earlier are mostly guesswork.

Thank you Assaji. However, based on what you wrote, I am happy to rely on the suttas. Kind regards

[un8-]

Hi DooDoot,

Are there any suttas using the word "vicara" to refer to the "wise evaluation" Thanissaro suggests?

Since "vicāra" is not expressly defined in the suttas, it makes little sense to infer its meaning from the suttas alone. Too many words would also fit the context. In exploring the meanings of the Pali terms, one can go only as early as the earliest definitions allow - in this case, Peṭakopadesa 7.72. Attempts to go earlier are mostly guesswork.

How do we know that Petakopadesa or Nettipakarana are the oldest commentaries? Are they older than all the other ones in Khuddaka Nikaya (such as patisambidhamagga, milindapanha, and others)?

[48vows]

vittaka is the loud sound a bell makes when first hit and vicara as the resonating humming sound after.

vittaka is a bird flapping its wings and vicara is the bird glideing.

[DooDoot]

vittaka is the loud sound a bell makes when first hit and vicara as the resonating humming sound after.

vittaka is a bird flapping its wings and vicara is the bird glideing.

Thanks. The ideas above appear not from sutta. Kind regards

[Assaji]

How do we know that Petakopadesa or Nettipakarana are the oldest commentaries? Are they older than all the other ones in Khuddaka Nikaya (such as patisambidhamagga, milindapanha, and others)?

Well, they are not commentaries, and they are not older than all the other texts in Khuddaka Nikaya.

What I am saying is that Peṭakopadesa 7.72 provides the earliest clear and detailed enough definition of "vicāra". The Peṭakopadesa is known to conform very well with the Sutta, and this definition befits very well the Sutta usage.

[48vows]

vittaka is the loud sound a bell makes when first hit and vicara as the resonating humming sound after.

vittaka is a bird flapping its wings and vicara is the bird glideing.

Thanks. The ideas above appear not from sutta. Kind regards

From vissudimaga

[un8-]

How do we know that Petakopadesa or Nettipakarana are the oldest commentaries? Are they older than all the other ones in Khuddaka Nikaya (such as patisambidhamagga, milindapanha, and others)?

Well, they are not commentaries, and they are not older than all the other texts in Khuddaka Nikaya.

What I am saying is that Peṭakopadesa 7.72 provides the earliest clear and detailed enough definition of "vicāra". The Peṭakopadesa is known to conform very well with the Sutta, and this definition befits very well the Sutta usage.

I don't know what 7.72 means but I found these pages in Petakopadesa

[DooDoot]

How do we know that Petakopadesa or Nettipakarana are the oldest commentaries? Are they older than all the other ones in Khuddaka Nikaya (such as patisambidhamagga, milindapanha, and others)?

Well, they are not commentaries, and they are not older than all the other texts in Khuddaka Nikaya.

What I am saying is that Peṭakopadesa 7.72 provides the earliest clear and detailed enough definition of "vicāra". The Peṭakopadesa is known to conform very well with the Sutta, and this definition befits very well the Sutta usage.

I don't know what 7.72 means but I found these pages in Petakopadesa

Thank you. Paragraph 580 above is reasonable however it does not appear to say the three wholesome thoughts are cultivated in the 1st jhana; despite the 1st jhana inserted into the translation in brackets.

Regardless, as I already posted, MN 19 is about the above subject matter of the three wholesome thoughts but does not use the words vitakka & vicara. MN 19 uses the words anuvitakka and anuvicara; as was posted in my original post.

Regardless, again, in respect to the 1st jhana, paragraph 580 above would merely describe the exploration of the factors of jhana; such as rapture; which does not need to be "ordinary" or "verbal thought".

In summary, it appears quite clear by the suttas than when vitakka & vicara are subordinate to another dhamma, the words vitakka & vicara are used. Thus, in jhana, vitakka & vicara are factors of the jhana rather than intentions of the practitioner; just as rapture & happiness are factors/products of the jhana rather than intentions of the practitioner.

Thank you again for the post.

[Assaji]

What I am saying is that Peṭakopadesa 7.72 provides the earliest clear and detailed enough definition of "vicāra". The Peṭakopadesa is known to conform very well with the Sutta, and this definition befits very well the Sutta usage.

I don't know what 7.72 means but I found these pages in Petakopadesa

Yes, this is it. The passage:

... paṭiladdhassa vicaraṇaṃ vicāro.
... evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received.

yathā puriso dūrato purisaṃ passati āgacchantaṃ,
Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance

na ca tāva jānāti eso itthīti vā purisoti vā
he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man,

yadā tu paṭilabhati itthīti vā purisoti vā
but when he has received [the recognition] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or

evaṃ vaṇṇoti vā evaṃ saṇṭhānoti vā
that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,”

ime vitakkayanto uttari upaparikkhanti
then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes,

kiṃ nu kho ayaṃ sīlavā udāhu dussīlo
“How then, is he ethical or unethical,

aḍḍho vā duggatoti vā.
rich or poor?”

evaṃ vicāro
This is evaluation.

resonates with the Titthāyatanasutta (Aṅg. 3.62):

The Eighteen Investigations of Mind

‘Ime aṭṭhārasa manopavicārā’ ti bhikkhave mayā Dhammo desito
‘These are the eighteen investigations of mind’ is a Teaching, monks, taught by me

aniggahito asaṁkiliṭṭho anupavajjo appaṭikuṭṭho samaṇehi brāhmaṇehi viññūhī ti.
that is without reproach, undefiled, blameless, and unreviled by wise ascetics and brahmins.

Iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ, kiñ-cetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
This is what was said, but in regard to what was it said?

Cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,
Having seen a form with the eye he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant form,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant form,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati.
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral form.

Sotena saddaṁ sutvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati,
Having heard a sound with the ear he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant sound,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant sound,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ saddaṁ upavicarati.
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral sound.

Ghānena gandhaṁ ghāyitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati,
Having smelt a smell with the nose he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant smell,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant smell,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ gandhaṁ upavicarati.
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral smell.

Jivhāya rasaṁ sāyitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,
Having tasted a taste with the tongue he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant taste,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant taste,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ rasaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral taste,

Kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusitvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,
Having touched a tangible with the body he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant tangible,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant tangible,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ phoṭṭhabbaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral tangible,

Manasā dhammaṁ viññāya somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,
Having cognised a mental object with the mind he investigates whether it is to be classified as a pleasant mental object,

domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati,
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a unpleasant mental object,

upekkhaṭṭhāniyaṁ dhammaṁ upavicarati.
he investigates whether it is to be classified as a neutral mental object.

‘Ime aṭṭhārasa manopavicārā’ ti bhikkhave mayā Dhammo desito
‘These are the eighteen investigations of mind’ is a Teaching, monks, taught by me

aniggahito asaṁkiliṭṭho anupavajjo appaṭikuṭṭho samaṇehi brāhmaṇehi viññūhī ti.

that is without reproach, undefiled, blameless, and unreviled by wise ascetics and brahmins.

Iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ, idam-etaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.
This is that which was said, and this is the reason it was said.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... .htm#Eight

[un8-]

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... .htm#Eight

Good sutta, so does this mean vitakka-vicara only arise after contact and before feeling in dependent origination?

Is vitakka-vicara only for the purpose of determining a feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral)?

It seems it is vicara that can lead to unwholesomess. If I see a person in the distance (vitakka) there is no decision yet, but when I make out who he is (vicara also translated as discernment), then if I don't like that person then hateful thoughts have the opportunity to arise.

So it seems like vicara discerns details which leads to unwholesomess or wholesomeness based on liking and disliking.

Of course the arahant still likes and dislikes, but it stops there and doesn't develop further into extra thoughts, so his vicara seems cut off to an extent.

In the context of jhana, the object is the mind, and upon evaluating (vicara) there is no unwholesomess (5 Hindrances), pleasant feelings arise (pamojja, piti, sukha). Would you say that is correct?

[Assaji]

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... .htm#Eight

Good sutta, so does this mean vitakka-vicara only arise after contact and before feeling in dependent origination?

This sutta does not describe dependent origination, it describes a particular method. AFAIK, the classification one obtains in such a way helps one to train equanimity towards pleasant, unpleasant or neutral things.

As for dependent origination, vitakka arises after contact, independent of feeling:

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm

Is vitakka-vicara only for the purpose of determining a feeling (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral)?

Not at all, as you can see from the Peṭakopadesa definition.

It seems it is vicara that can lead to unwholesomess. If I see a person in the distance (vitakka) there is no decision yet, but when I make out who he is (vicara also translated as discernment), then if I don't like that person then hateful thoughts have the opportunity to arise.

Yes, indeed.

So it seems like vicara discerns details which leads to unwholesomess or wholesomeness based on liking and disliking.

Of course the arahant still likes and dislikes, but it stops there and doesn't develop further into extra thoughts, so his vicara seems cut off to an extent.

The Arahant cuts off conceptual proliferation (papañca).

In the context of jhana, the object is the mind, and upon evaluating (vicara) there is no unwholesomess (5 Hindrances), pleasant feelings arise (pamojja, piti, sukha). Would you say that is correct?

In the context of jhāna, there has to be a meditation basis (ārammaṇa). Contacting this basis again and again, you evaluate the results of the contact by the criteria of this or that Satipaṭṭhāna. If you are dealing with hindrances, with breath as a basis, you can, for example, evaluate on successive contacts with the breath, is there craving for in-breath or craving for out-breath, as described in the Ānāpānassati chapter of the Paṭisambhidāmagga. If you are developing rapture or pleasure with the second Satipaṭṭhāna, Ajahn Lee explains vicāra in such a way:

To adjust the breath and let it spread is called vicāra, evaluation. When all aspects of the breath flow freely throughout the body, you feel full and refreshed in body and mind: This is piti, rapture. When body and mind are both at rest, you feel serene and at ease: This is sukha, pleasure.
...
(c) Evaluation (vicāra): Gain a sense of how to let this comfortable breath sensation spread and connect with the other breath sensations in the body. Let these breath sensations spread until they're interconnected all over the body. Once the body has been soothed by the breath, feelings of pain will grow calm. The body will be filled with good breath energy. (The mind is focused exclusively on issues connected with the breath.)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... nmind.html