Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

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Ontheway
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Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Ontheway »

There are several versions of it.

PTS put "good, bad, indeterminate".

Bhante Sujato put it as "skilful, unskilful, undesignated".

Bhante Nayanatiloka put it as "kammically wholesome, kammically unwholesome, neutral".

Bhante Bhikkhu Bodhi put as "wholesome, unwholesome, indeterminate"

Which translation should I follow to get the meaning closest to Pali word?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by SarathW »

I can't give you a direct answer.

However, I will interpret wholesome and unwholesome based on the Abhidhamma.


Abyakata is based on the following. The way I understand Abyakata is also unwholesome. So all the translations you proposed seem incorrect to me.
I may be wrong as I am confused with the two words Abyakata and Avyakatha.
lists the reasons why the Buddha does not take a position on any of these questions. In each case he says that such a position "is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding."

These reasons fall into two categories. The first concerns the present drawbacks of taking such a position: It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, and fever. The second category concerns the effects of such a position over time: It does not lead to awakening or Unbinding. AN 10.93 further explores the first category of reasons. MN 63 further explores the second.
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DooDoot
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammapada says:
311. Just as kusa grass wrongly handled cuts the hand, even so, a recluse's life wrongly lived drags one to states of woe.
Kusa is a type of grass that cuts

La means "cutting"

So "kusala" may mean "cutting the grass that cuts" or that which removes what is painful & dangerous.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Assaji
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Assaji »

Hi Ontheway,
Ontheway wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:43 am Which translation should I follow to get the meaning closest to Pali word?
This depends on what text you translate. In the early texts, the term "kusala" had strong connotations of skill. Later on, its meaning shifted toward moral "wholesomeness". So translators who explore early texts in their own terms (like Ven. Thanissaro), emphasize "skilfulness", and translators who rely on interpretations in later texts (like Ven. Bodhi), emphasize "wholesomeness".

See detailed discussion in the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5575

Regarding "avyākata", I can recommend you the relevant entry in the Critical Pāli Dictionary:

https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=10502
ssasny
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by ssasny »

In a different thread on Margaret Cone's Dictionary of Pali, Assaji posted a video with Prof. Cone from a few years back.

I recommend watching it as she discusses how one Pali word can have a broad range of meanings.
(in the video the words paññā and Pāli are discussed)

It is impossible to choose just one English equivalent of a Pāli word. Pāli is a highly nuanced language, the same word can mean different things in different contexts.

Ontheway
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Ontheway »

Thank you for all the comments and info ...

:anjali:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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samseva
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:39 am Dhammapada says:
311. Just as kusa grass wrongly handled cuts the hand, even so, a recluse's life wrongly lived drags one to states of woe.
Kusa is a type of grass that cuts

La means "cutting"
- The verse you quoted isn't about kusala—kusala isn't described in that whole section, or mentioned in the Pāḷi.
- It isn't because a word has "la" in it that the word automatically means "cutting."
DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:39 am So "kusala" may mean "cutting the grass that cuts"
"Cutting the grass that cuts"? How is that even logical?
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samseva
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by samseva »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:43 am There are several versions of it.

PTS put "good, bad, indeterminate".
(PTS has "clever, skilful, expert; good, right, meritorious" for kusala.)
Ontheway wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:43 am Which translation should I follow to get the meaning closest to Pali word?
Since you a using English to describe a Pāḷi word—as the same for almost any Pāḷi word, or any language for that matter—there is usually no single exact/completely equivalent word.

Although it depends on context, the most common ways to translate "kusala" would be "skillful," "wholesome," and "kammically wholesome" (the last two are the same thing, with the second only being more detailed). The opposite is "akusala," usually translated as "unskillful," "unwholesome."
SarathW
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by SarathW »

ssasny wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:57 pm In a different thread on Margaret Cone's Dictionary of Pali, Assaji posted a video with Prof. Cone from a few years back.

I recommend watching it as she discusses how one Pali word can have a broad range of meanings.
(in the video the words paññā and Pāli are discussed)

It is impossible to choose just one English equivalent of a Pāli word. Pāli is a highly nuanced language, the same word can mean different things in different contexts.

One of the Sri Lankan monks said that the Pali means line (Pela)
That is original Pali was written without separating sentences and words as one line.
:shrug:
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ssasny
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by ssasny »

Yes, when the word Pāli (row, line, causeway, etc.) refers to the text of the Buddha's teaching, it has the sense of a line of writing.
The Pāli language, in that sense, doesn't really have a name. The word here just means, 'the text'.
I recommend listening to Dr. Cone explain it, she does it very well.

Pāli translation choices are determined by the context, one cannot simply fix on one translation choice for the entire Canon.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:32 pm Yes, when the word Pāli (row, line, causeway, etc.) refers to the text of the Buddha's teaching, it has the sense of a line of writing.
The Pāli language, in that sense, doesn't really have a name. The word here just means, 'the text'.
I recommend listening to Dr. Cone explain it, she does it very well.

Pāli translation choices are determined by the context, one cannot simply fix on one translation choice for the entire Canon.
Much like English, French, and Chinese. It's almost as if language itself is ambiguous, and by "almost" I mean definitely.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Ontheway
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Ontheway »

samseva wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:47 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:43 am There are several versions of it.

PTS put "good, bad, indeterminate".
(PTS has "clever, skilful, expert; good, right, meritorious" for kusala.)
Ontheway wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:43 am Which translation should I follow to get the meaning closest to Pali word?
Since you a using English to describe a Pāḷi word—as the same for almost any Pāḷi word, or any language for that matter—there is usually no single exact/completely equivalent word.

Although it depends on context, the most common ways to translate "kusala" would be "skillful," "wholesome," and "kammically wholesome" (the last two are the same thing, with the second only being more detailed). The opposite is "akusala," usually translated as "unskillful," "unwholesome."
Thank you for info. I was reading some Suttas in Pali and also compiling personal version of Dhammasangani translation where "Kusala" and "Akusala" terms appeared frequently, and I think you're right, the meaning should based on the context. :smile:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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mjaviem
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by mjaviem »

ssasny wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:32 pm ...
Pāli translation choices are determined...
... by the translator who should determine them...
ssasny wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:32 pm ... by the context, one cannot simply fix on one translation choice for the entire Canon
So it all comes down to the translator's views and understanding if I'm correct.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Ontheway
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by Ontheway »

I think there's always a risk of miscomprehension of the Pali word by just guessing the context. Therefore I think we need to refer to Atthakatha and learned monks (not just one or a few but many) for guidance.

For example,
1) "Dhamma" can be "teachings", "phenomenon", or "duties".
2) "Gandhabba" could be the a race of "musician devas" resided in Catumaharajika Heaven, or "beings to be reborn".
3) "Brahmana" can be referred to Brahmins or Arahat (as in Dhammapada)
4) "Naga" can be translated as "dragon", "cobra serpent", "elephant" or even "Arahat".

"one cannot simply fix on one translation choice for the entire Canon"

And I agree with this, just imagine if the author, while translating Dhammapada, maintained that "Brahmana" is to be translated as "Brahmin priest", then within the last chapter Brahmanavagga, all verses will be rendered as Buddha praising Brahmin priests.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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samseva
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Re: Translation of Kusala, Akusala, and Abyakata

Post by samseva »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:24 pm Thank you for info. I was reading some Suttas in Pali and also compiling personal version of Dhammasangani translation where "Kusala" and "Akusala" terms appeared frequently, and I think you're right, the meaning should based on the context. :smile:
Yes, context is important, however, it's not everything. Some Pāḷi words have only one definition, in every single context. Some two, some three. It's rarely more than three.
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