sangha meaning in the suttas

[Mr. Seek]

Is sangha taken to mean only the monastic community of samanas/bhikkhus in the suttas? Im asking because ive heard it said from others that it can also be used to refer to 1) the NOBLE sangha, i.e. those who are fully or partially awakened (e.g. 4 stages of enlightenment), and 2) to the buddhist community as a whole, including its laymen and lay women. Wanted to confirm. I feel like originally it meant only the bhikkhus/samanas who are followera of Gotama, i.e. sangha strictly as the monastic order in general

[Nicolas]

The Sangha that one takes refuge in, that is (re)collected with Buddha and Dhamma as the triple gem, is the noble/ariya sangha.

The Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way, that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals; this Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.

[samseva]

Sangha can be either the ordained monastics, or the lay Buddhist community. There is also the ariya-sangha, which are either monastics or lay people who are Stream-Enterers/Once-Returners/Non-Returners/fully Enlightened.

[SarathW]

In Buddhism, terminologies can have multiple meanings and applications.
Generally, they move from gross to subtle.
It could be ordained monks.
It could be ordained monks and the lay followers who practice it.
It could be Ariyasaniga means Sotapanna and onwards,
it could be the practice of the Dhamma.

[Mr. Seek]

Was watching jain youtube videos by dr. Christopher Miller. He said sangha was originally a term used in reference to troops, then borrowed by samanas as a term for their orders. Makes sense. Samanas like jains and buddhists were kshatriya, the warrior caste. I recall also how buddhist monks walk in line like troops. How they "wage war" on brahmins, dukkha, samsara, kilesas, etc.

[DiamondNgXZ]

The Sangha that one takes refuge in, that is (re)collected with Buddha and Dhamma as the triple gem, is the noble/ariya sangha.

The Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way, that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals; this Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.

Actually, this seems like a common misconception.

See DN2: https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato? ... ript=latin

I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.
Esāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavantaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca.

It's taking refuge in the Bhikkhu Sangha (monks), not the ariya Sangha. Ariya Sangha is more on the Ratana sutta, and the recollection of the Sangha, as well as great virtue to give donation to.

For more info, can read this book: https://sasanarakkha.org/2014/04/01/do- ... or-refuge/

Do We Go to the Triple Gem for Refuge? provides indisputable evidence from the Pāli Canon as well as sound reasons to show
the fallacy of such a pervasive and long-held misconception.

In the process of clearly distinguishing the Triple Gem from the Triple Refuge and explaining the range of Buddhist faith, Do We Go to the Triple Gem for Refuge? reveals that during the Buddha’s time, Buddhists did not take refuge in the Triple Gem. Rather, they were encouraged to have faith in the abstract ideal qualities of the Buddha, Dhamma and Community of noble ones (sāvaka·Saṅgha)—only some of which are included in the Triple Gem—while they actually went to Gotama Buddha, his Dhamma Teaching and the Community of monks (bhikkhu·Saṅgha) for refuge.

With this astonishing revelation, Do We Go to the Triple Gem for Refuge? hopes to alert all practicing Buddhists to the need for more caution in their acceptance and practice of what is claimed to be the Buddha’s Teaching.

[BKh]

Sangha can be either the ordained monastics, or the lay Buddhist community.

Can you share a passage where it refers to the lay Buddhist community in the suttas? Not talking about the Ariya who may be lay people. They specifically asked about in the suttas.

[Nicolas]

The Sangha that one takes refuge in, that is (re)collected with Buddha and Dhamma as the triple gem, is the noble/ariya sangha.

The Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way, that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals; this Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.

Actually, this seems like a common misconception.

See DN2: https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato? ... ript=latin

I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha.
Esāhaṁ, bhante, bhagavantaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi dhammañca bhikkhusaṅghañca.

[...]

Thank you for the correction, bhante! (Pardon the "necro-posting", but I hadn't seen your reply and wanted to acknowledge my error.)

[mikenz66]

Thank you for the correction, bhante! (Pardon the "necro-posting", but I hadn't seen your reply and wanted to acknowledge my error.)

I don't think it's really an error. There are several suttas, such as the one you quoted, where the Buddha suggests that one recollect the qualities of the Buddha, Dhamma and the Ariya Sangha to conquer fear, for example SN11.3:
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn11.3

Then there are passages where converts go for refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Mendicant Sangha as Ven DiamondNgXZ points out.


Mike

[Nicolas]

Hi Mike, I was only referring to the sangha taken refuge in in my most recent post. DiamondNgXZ made the distinction between taking refuge in the Sangha (bhikkhusangha) and recollecting the Sangha (ariyasangha):

Ariya Sangha is more on the Ratana sutta, and the recollection of the Sangha, as well as great virtue to give donation to.

So my error was in saying that the Sangha that one takes refuge in was specifically the ariyasangha.

[SarathW]

Is taking refuge of Sangha and Kalyanamitta the same?
I can't see how I take refuge of Sangha unless at least he is a Sotapanna.
However I think non-Sotapanna can be a Kalyanamitta.

[mikenz66]

Ni Nicholas,

Hi Mike, I was only referring to the sangha taken refuge in in my most recent post. DiamondNgXZ made the distinction between taking refuge in the Sangha (bhikkhusangha) and recollecting the Sangha (ariyasangha):

Ariya Sangha is more on the Ratana sutta, and the recollection of the Sangha, as well as great virtue to give donation to.

So my error was in saying that the Sangha that one takes refuge in was specifically the ariyasangha.

I don't actually think it's completely clear cut. Though some texts talk about the ordained sangha, my view of refuge is also informed by those suttas about recalling the triple gem in case of danger, etc. In particular, I think it would be a serious mistake to think that one is going for refuge with a particular individual mendicant. We are instructed to donate for the good of the monastic sangha, not for an individual, and it seems reasonable to me that the same applies to refuge.


Mike

[Nicolas]

I found one instance in the Vimānavatthu of explicitly taking refuge in the ariyasangha:

The Blessed One’s noble disciples consist of the Four Pairs and the Eight Individuals. Those who offer gifts to these people gain fruitful results. Go for refuge to these excellent disciples, the Supreme Sangha.

Yattha ca dinna mahapphalamāhu,
Catūsu sucīsu purisayugesu;
Aṭṭha ca puggaladhammadasā te,
Saṅghamimaṁ saraṇatthamupehi.

[mjaviem]

This is something I don't understand. In what kind of sangha can refuge be found other than a Noble sangha?

...
Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, with defilements extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is possible
...

[DiamondNgXZ]

This is something I don't understand. In what kind of sangha can refuge be found other than a Noble sangha?

...
Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, with defilements extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is possible
...

I think in practical terms, it's not easy to identify who's the ariyasangha. It's much easier to identify the Bhikkhu sangha.

There's also some caveat of course.

1. Those Bhikkhu Sangha who are not (yet) ariyas, still have some qualities of observing the vinaya, know the dhamma well etc which is worthy to learn from. For those who don't are not ariyas and also lack many other qualities, eg use money, don't know how to teach etc, they are perhaps not so reliable as a refuge.

2. For say stream winners, they can be lay people who are not well versed in the suttas, or mistaken their attainment to be higher (eg. Daniel Ingram). So they are not 100% reliable as well, and might not inspire much faith even if they declare openly that they are ariyas. Not all of them also knows how to teach, but still the kamma of donating to them is very good. Although, they might not receive it due to them still earning their own money. There can be stream winners who doesn't fancy monastic lifestyle of renounciation, still aiming to get married, so they can be in certain aspects not inspiring. One I even knew she drank alcohol! In aspects of being able to serve as living example that the path works, there's an end to the path and able to reveal themselves openly, it's a good inspiration to the rest of us.

3. There might be some secular Buddhist out there who might overestimate themselves to be stream winners, and they don't regard rebirth as essential in the Dhamma. So that's another danger. Whereas monastics, we have some process to try to make sure the monastics are having right views on the Dhamma.