Hotim hū, and bhū

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Sam Vara
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Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:09 pm Another instance of what I find pointless, is when every translators (plagiarizing one another endlessly), translate "hoti" in "imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti", as "that is"; when "hoti" comes from the root hū and not bhū. "Hoti" means "calls" — Warder explains it.
Could you say where Warder explains that, please?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One (Week of October 3, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:33 pm (Maybe because you still don't check for parallels, for your quoted sutta's extracts - and above all, because you don't use a proper historical etymology).
Sorry to say! - and that applies to most, if not all of the people on this forum.
You are not a historical etymologist.
That's the way "I am" — but it's not my real self.
Still stuck on the delusion of immortality I see.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One (Week of October 3, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:38 pm
ToVincent wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:09 pm Another instance of what I find pointless, is when every translators (plagiarizing one another endlessly), translate "hoti" in "imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti", as "that is"; when "hoti" comes from the root hū and not bhū. "Hoti" means "calls" — Warder explains it.
Could you say where Warder explains that, please?
Make a search in Warder on hū or hve - you will find it.

In an example, he puts "call" in parenthesis ( he will be "called") .
E.g. sace agaram ajjhdvasati, raja hoti = if he lives at home he will be a king, (or he will be called a king).

And the suttas are full of examples like these:
Here, bhikkhus, a meditator is called skilled in resolve but not a duly (careful) worker…"
“samādhismiṃ abhinīhārakusalo hoti, na samādhismiṃ sakkaccakārī..."
SN 34.50

“Faith is called a person’s partner.
Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti.
SN 1.59


“Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, this calls upon the stepping down of name-and-form.
“Saṃyojaniyesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu assādānupassino viharato nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
SN 12.58

Etc.

The main thing remains the importance of the concept of the "call", in the Indian philosophy of the time.
So read Veda as well — which you should have started with, before you got into Buddhism. The same way that à Christian should have read the Bible, before he got into that Christian thing.
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Sam Vara
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One (Week of October 3, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:06 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:38 pm
ToVincent wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:09 pm Another instance of what I find pointless, is when every translators (plagiarizing one another endlessly), translate "hoti" in "imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti", as "that is"; when "hoti" comes from the root hū and not bhū. "Hoti" means "calls" — Warder explains it.
Could you say where Warder explains that, please?
Make a search in Warder on hū or hve - you will find it.

In an example, he puts "call" in parenthesis ( he will be "called") .
E.g. sace agaram ajjhdvasati, raja hoti = if he lives at home he will be a king, (or he will be called a king).

And the suttas are full of examples like these:
Here, bhikkhus, a meditator is called skilled in resolve but not a duly (careful) worker…"
“samādhismiṃ abhinīhārakusalo hoti, na samādhismiṃ sakkaccakārī..."
SN 34.50

“Faith is called a person’s partner.
Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti.
SN 1.59


“Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, this calls upon the stepping down of name-and-form.
“Saṃyojaniyesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu assādānupassino viharato nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
SN 12.58

Etc.

The main thing remains the importance of the concept of the "call", in the Indian philosophy of the time.
So read Veda as well — which you should have started with, before you got into Buddhism. The same way that à Christian should have read the Bible, before he got into that Christian thing.
.
.
Do you mean Warder's Introduction to Pali? If so, I can't find it anywhere. In the vocabulary, is "be", and in the table of verbs has hoti for 3rd person present and includes bhavissati for the future tense.

There is no mention of "calls", and Warder gives sam-khā for this, which is what I would have expected. And would there not be different forms for the passive ("is called") and the active ("calls")? If you can find the first quote above, and if we are talking about the same book, could you give a page reference?
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One (Week of October 3, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:28 am has hoti for 3rd person present.
That I understand, when hū is taken as a contracted form of the root bhū.
However, hū is also a weak form of the root hve (to invoke, to call).

In the case of "imasmiṃ sati - idaṃ hoti", there is the need for a call.
"That turns out there" (imasmiṃ sati) is the result of craving, etc. (up to the maintenance and establishment of consciousness in the khandhas of the namarupa nidana — where consciousness finds a home in them (SN 22.3). ( https://justpaste.it/804f8 - the green part).
But for consciousness to grow, and for a descent of namarupa, there must be a "call" — and that is raga for these khandhas.
The ear must have raga for that lute, for the sound to uppajjati.
(One must investigate a khandha to the extent that there is a range for that khandha - SN 35.246 - and the upper range of the khandha is the lute. This is what is "called" — "bring me that lute", says the king).

-------

If hū comes from bhū, with its underlying meaning of becoming (come into being) - how would you translate this particular extract:
Faith is called a person’s partner.
Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti.
SN 1.59


Would you say: "Faith is (becoming) a person’s partner" ?!?!?

No! — Faith is (called) a person's partner — Faith is not (becoming) a person's partner.

_______

I have already covered that Warder thing somewhere - I am not going to cover it again.
I even remember him conjugatiing hoti, in all kind of tenses.
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Re: Suggestions, Comments and Feedback for the Study Group

Post by Coëmgenu »

This "to call" business is speculation from ToVincent. It has no basis, neither in the Pāli suttas nor in Warder's Pāli textbook. The translators who translate "imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti" without deriving the "hū" from a "hve" do it correctly.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One (Week of October 3, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:38 pm Would you say: "Faith is (becoming) a person’s partner" ?!?!?
Yes, I might, depending on context - it makes sense as a metaphor.
No! — Faith is (called) a person's partner — Faith is not (becoming) a person's partner.
Well, I don't have any evidence yet. But I'll try not to do it in your presence if it vexes you.
I have already covered that Warder thing somewhere - I am not going to cover it again.
OK, no worries. Lack of evidence doesn't do a lot to persuade me, though.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

The sentence:

Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti

quoted above, can be literally translated as "Faith is a partner/companion for a person"
'hoti'= 'is' 'purisassa' is gen./dat. = 'for a person'. saddhā and dutiyā are equated, feminine nominative singular.

The verb hoti is really the same as bhavati.
The 'ava' resolves to 'o' (not uncommon) and the b drops out.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:42 pmThe verb hoti is really the same as bhavati.
:goodpost:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:42 pm The verb hoti is really the same as bhavati.
The 'ava' resolves to 'o' (not uncommon) and the b drops out.
Sure!
And?

AGAIN, bhavati (√ bhū) has the underlying meaning of "to become", (SKT. come into being , exist RV.)

Does "faith COME INTO BEING as a companion for a person"?!?!

The question in SN 1.59 is:
What is a person’s companion?

Would one rather see the answer as:

Faith is called a person's companion.
OR
Faith is becoming a person's companion.

I don't see your point.

There must be a call ( the Vedic way,) from satta to the lute, so that raga (lust) can arise between the sound and the ear.
For consciousness to grow and descend within namarupa, in the salayatana nidana, there must be this sprinkle of delight, sent through the evocation (call).
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

Not only "to become," but also "to be" in general.

"Faith is a companion," etc., etc.

The "is" is the "to be."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

Bhavati/hoti does indeed have the sense of 'to become' sometimes, but it also has the basic sense of 'to be' which in the present tense singular = 'is'.


So, "Faith is a person's companion" In this sentence, the verb 'to be', hoti, is in the present tense, 3rd person singular. It is rendered as 'is'.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Ceisiwr »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:54 pm Bhavati/hoti does indeed have the sense of 'to become' sometimes, but it also has the basic sense of 'to be' which in the present tense singular = 'is'.


So, "Faith is a person's companion" In this sentence, the verb 'to be', hoti, is in the present tense, 3rd person singular. It is rendered as 'is'.

I hope this clears up the confusion.
“Is” is also a translation of “atthi” yes?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

Atthi is also translated as 'is' when present tense 3rd person singular.
The two different verbs 'to be' in Pali are used somewhat differently.

Atthi "is, exists" as Gair and Karunatillake (p. 34) says, "generally asserts the existence of something.
Bhavati/ hoti "also asserts existence, but it may also have the sense 'become' and unlike atthi, may be used in equational sentences (i.e. X is Y)
idha bhikkhu sīlavā hoti = herein a monk is virtuous"

(Our sentence above, Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti , is very similar to this last example. faith is a companion.)

In a sentence quoted at the beginning of this thread," imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti", we have a slightly more complicated construction using the present participle of the verb atthi in the locative case (sati) = 'in being''. This is called a 'locative absolute construction.'
Last edited by ssasny on Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Ceisiwr »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:06 pm Atthi is also translated as 'is' when present tense 3rd person singular.
The two different verbs 'to be' in Pali are used somewhat differently.

Atthi "is, exists" as Gair and Karunatillake (p. 34) says, "generally asserts the existence of something."
Bhavati/ hoti "also asserts existence, but it may also have the sense 'become' and unlike atthi, may be used in equational sentences (i.e. X is Y)
idha bhikkhu sīlavā hoti = herein a monk is virtuous

(Our sentence above, Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti , is very similar to this last example. faith is a companion.)
I remember Coëmgenu sharing a paper with me discussing how bhavati/atthi had started to become used interchangeably by even the Rig veda. Perhaps he could comment further.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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