Nāmarūpa

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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Nāmarūpa

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is nāmarūpa better translated as "name and form" or "named form"?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by un8- »

Mind and body
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Mr. Seek »

name-and-form, but with a long endnote explaining what the various ancient 500 BC Indian ascetics (not just Buddhists, as the term predates Buddhism) understood by that.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:53 pmMind and body
According to the Abhidhamma, yes. Not quite so much when you look at the Vedic usage or even Pali definitions. For example, if we look at rūpa we find

Pāli

Rūpa
- form
- figure
- appearance
- principle of form

Sanskrit

रूप [ rūpa ]
- any outward appearance or phenomenon or colour
- form
- shape
- figure
- dreamy or phantom shapes

From the thematic verb रूप् (rūp):

√ रूप् [ rūp ]
- to form
- figure
- represent

For the physical body Vedic texts seem to have preferred sarīra, and we see this in the suttas too although kāya can also mean the physical body. Rūpa seems to mean something more like the appearance of something.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Mr. Seek »

I posted this on a thread once, OP, don"t know if you've read it:



I think it was interpreted in many different ways.

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God"--I think this is related haha
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nāmarūpa

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Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm
I have read it. I took a lot from it, but I disagree with Wynne on some points. For example, I think the Buddha’s former teachers were annihilationists.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:26 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm
I have read it. I took a lot from it, but I disagree with Wynne on some points. For example, I think the Buddha’s former teachers were annihilationists.
Yeah, I don't know about that tbh; just sharing.

I think the meaning of this word depends on who's saying it and in what context. Whether it's a brahman speaking towards the Buddha, the Buddha replying to brahmans, whether it's a desciple of the Buddha talking about something, etc. And I bet brahmins and samanas had different interpretations of it. And I bet the Buddha played with the word. Hence why I think name-and-form with an endnote explanation is OK. This way both the many old and the many new interpretations can be covered.
un8-
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:08 pm

For the physical body Vedic texts seem to have preferred sarīra, and we see this in the suttas too although kāya can also mean the physical body. Rūpa seems to mean something more like the appearance of something.
Satipatthana shows the practical (useful) meaning of nama rupa

Rupa = Form = Body
"Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'
Nama = Cetana, Manasikara, Phassa, Vedana, Sanna
"And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling.' When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'
And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
"In this way he remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves, or externally on mental qualities in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on mental qualities in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to mental qualities, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to mental qualities, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities. Or his mindfulness that 'There are mental qualities' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths...
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Coëmgenu »

un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pmNama = Cetana, Manasikara, Phassa, Vedana, Sanna
Does sañña = viññāṇa?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Mr. Seek »

un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:08 pm

For the physical body Vedic texts seem to have preferred sarīra, and we see this in the suttas too although kāya can also mean the physical body. Rūpa seems to mean something more like the appearance of something.
Satipatthana shows the practical (useful) meaning of nama rupa
You really think brahmins talking with the Buddha, on meeting him for the first time, when they don't know anything about the Buddhist Dhamma, would, in using important metaphysical brahminic terms, be referring to the orthodox Buddhist meanings (re/mis/nterpretations) of said terms, and not the brahminic meanings?
un8-
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by un8- »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:34 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:08 pm

For the physical body Vedic texts seem to have preferred sarīra, and we see this in the suttas too although kāya can also mean the physical body. Rūpa seems to mean something more like the appearance of something.
Satipatthana shows the practical (useful) meaning of nama rupa
You really think brahmins talking with the Buddha, on meeting him for the first time, when they don't know anything about the Buddhist Dhamma, would, in using important metaphysical brahminic terms, be referring to the orthodox Buddhist meanings (interpretations) of said terms, and not the brahminic meanings?
Today we have multiple meanings for words, you can have a word mean different things in different subjects like in chemistry, biology, physics. The past is no different.

Furthermore the application or practice reflects on what is meant by the word. The Buddha said in the Gotami sutta if something doesn't lead to dispassion and letting go it's not his teaching, so whatever non-ariyans believed isn't important. Seeing the body as mere elements and not a self that can be owned leads to dispassion and giving up since you realize the body belongs to the world/environment, because it it's composed of the world/environment, it doesn't belong to you.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
un8-
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by un8- »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:33 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pmNama = Cetana, Manasikara, Phassa, Vedana, Sanna
Does sañña = viññāṇa?
DO is an inheritance based model, that's why the suttas say consciousness is bound up with the body. So nama inherits vinnana since it comes after.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Coëmgenu »

un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:33 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pmNama = Cetana, Manasikara, Phassa, Vedana, Sanna
Does sañña = viññāṇa?
DO is an inheritance based model, that's why the suttas say consciousness is bound up with the body. So nama inherits vinnana since it comes after.
What does it mean to you for viññāṇa to be inherited by nāma?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Location: Wales

Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:17 pm Satipatthana shows the practical (useful) meaning of nama rupa

Rupa = Form = Body
That talks about kaya (body), yes. The definition of rupa in namarupa is always the 4 elements and the form/image/appearance derived from them. You could take this to mean their shape. Shape of course can be related to matter if you wish to acknowledge such a thing, but it’s always an abstraction.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by un8- »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:49 pm
un8- wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:33 pm Does sañña = viññāṇa?
DO is an inheritance based model, that's why the suttas say consciousness is bound up with the body. So nama inherits vinnana since it comes after.
What does it mean to you for viññāṇa to be inherited by nāma?
Huh? I said nama-rupa inherits vinnana, likewise the sixfold sense media inherits nama-rupa.
Last edited by un8- on Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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