Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

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namyoho
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Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by namyoho »

I have been studying Sanskrit for 4 years, and recently became interested in Pali. I have been trying to translate some text, but have difficulty in the following. I would greatly appreciate all help:

1. Then leaf subsides to leaf.

2. With the lapse of time, it began to vain.

3. When it seemed as if it could bear no more.

4. There is something wrong, in wanting to silence any song.

Thank you.
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samseva
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by samseva »

With Pāḷi, you should be translating from Pāḷi, rather than to Pāḷi.

You technically could, though, but why?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by Sam Vara »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:48 am With Pāḷi, you should be translating from Pāḷi, rather than to Pāḷi.

You technically could, though, but why?
Fluency. The Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies Pali course has students conversing in Pali, and primers like Lily da Silva's and Warder get learners translating from English to Pali.

That Robert Frost is exceptionally difficult, though!
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samseva
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by samseva »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am Fluency.
Okay, but I mean, what is the point of talking in Pāḷi? Although it surely helps with memorization of vocabulary and grammatical rules, one's time would be better spent translating from Pāḷi.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by Sam Vara »

samseva wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:18 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am Fluency.
Okay, but I mean, what is the point of talking in Pāḷi? Although it surely helps with memorization of vocabulary and grammatical rules, one's time would be better spent translating from Pāḷi.
As I said, it helps with fluency. Maybe different people find different learning techniques to be effective for them.

(At the risk of going off topic even further, I find a good deal of Dhamma in the Frost poem, so if I were made aware of it through a Pali course, I would be grateful indeed...)
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samseva
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by samseva »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:16 am As I said, it helps with fluency. Maybe different people find different learning techniques to be effective for them.
Ah, okay, you mean fluency, as in fluency with reading, and with the language, rather than speaking.

To be fair, though, this is how you started your post:
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am Fluency. The Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies Pali course has students conversing in Pali
namyoho
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by namyoho »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am
That Robert Frost is exceptionally difficult, though!
Could you please just guide me a bit? I have successfully translated the rest, but am struggling with these sentences.

Thanks again.
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by Sam Vara »

namyoho wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:41 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am
That Robert Frost is exceptionally difficult, though!
Could you please just guide me a bit? I have successfully translated the rest, but am struggling with these sentences.

Thanks again.
Apologies, that's way too hard for me. I meant that it is hard enough in English, so getting the full meaning in translation would be tough. Members Assaji and Sphairos might be able to help. PM them if it's really important? And Ven. Dhammanando, when he comes out of retreat in a couple of weeks.
namyoho
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by namyoho »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:12 pm
namyoho wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:41 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:10 am
That Robert Frost is exceptionally difficult, though!
Could you please just guide me a bit? I have successfully translated the rest, but am struggling with these sentences.

Thanks again.
Apologies, that's way too hard for me. I meant that it is hard enough in English, so getting the full meaning in translation would be tough. Members Assaji and Sphairos might be able to help. PM them if it's really important? And Ven. Dhammanando, when he comes out of retreat in a couple of weeks.
I understand. Thank you for all the help :)
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by Padipa »

Okay, so, IMO, given your stated goal, I would start by working exclusively with Pali verse, not the prose. Verse is always a tougher medium in which to work. If you spend time grasping the subtle nuances of say, the Dhammapada, you will get a feel for how Pali uses metaphors & analogical thinking to relay more complex thought & feelings.

When I started with Pali, I struggled with the verse. This is because grammatical rules often go out the window in verse. Remember, in verse economy, meter & even rhyme often are paramount. Therefore, one must immerse oneself in verse if one is to become (excuse the pun) :tongue: well-versed in the matter.

Once you begin to grasp Pali verse, with all the nuanced accompaniment it possesses, then you can move to working, from English, to Pali. But, IMO, you must grasp Pali verse, first--otherwise you are shooting arrows without a target. Best, jt
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by sphairos »

This is rather difficult even for advanced Pāli lovers/readers/speakers/researchers.

I can try and give you some versions later, after further research. There is no problem in translating this literally (word-to-word/word-by-word) and in translating the meaning of it, but translating idiomatically would require finding very close idiomatic phrases/collocations in Pāli, and this requires deep mastery of the language, especially given that the language itself is highly idiomatic, formulaic and formalized.
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by sphairos »

And one more remark: it seems you don't have much experience of learning classical ancient languages (Latin, Greek, Iranian, Sanskrit, Chinese, Japanese). Translating into the language you want to learn is a good practice with modern languages, but with the classical languages the question is rather what this or that particular sentence means and how we can translate it correctly into some modern medium. Only after reaching an extremely high level of well-read-ness in the literature (for instance, with the Greek -- after meaningfully reading in original a number of key classical texts, for instance, Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides -- which is really hard), it makes sense (and becomes possible) to try to translate complex texts and ideas into Ancient Greek (and a fluency of Modern Greek would be very handy).

With Pāli, I would say, one should start after meaningfully reading a hundred or so of medium and small suttas.

Of course Warder's and other similar courses are very helpful and important, but one should understand that all translations into Pāli are preliminary.
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by Coëmgenu »

After that, the OP can translate the phrase "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously!"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
namyoho
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Re: Guidance In Translating Idiomatic Phrases to Pali

Post by namyoho »

sphairos wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:20 pm This is rather difficult even for advanced Pāli lovers/readers/speakers/researchers.

I can try and give you some versions later, after further research. There is no problem in translating this literally (word-to-word/word-by-word) and in translating the meaning of it, but translating idiomatically would require finding very close idiomatic phrases/collocations in Pāli, and this requires deep mastery of the language, especially given that the language itself is highly idiomatic, formulaic and formalized.
I apologize I might have misworded the post. These phrases are a part of poems that I need to translate literally.
I have translated and posted them viewtopic.php?f=23&t=41655&p=651218#p651218. I would appreciate all your inputs.

Thank you.
:namaste:
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