The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

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ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:31 pm Ācariya Buddhaghosa gives several glosses of how to understand the term. I don't see anything in there which supports your view.
Oh!, I suppose that you call Ācariya Buddhaghosa, an early master.

You know what the Buddha said: "500 years".

I'm into suttas with parallels.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:35 pm An issue that is unaddressed is that the OP freely mixes Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit with Vedic Sanskrit. The two are not the same Sanskrit. Pratītya is likely used very differently in the Vedas and Upanishads. Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit is Sanskritized Prākrit, not true Sanskrit according to Vedic standards.
Then use pratī, if there is no reference but late BSk. As seen before.

By the way Upanishads are Veda. They are part of it.
?!?!?
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Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:31 pm Ācariya Buddhaghosa gives several glosses of how to understand the term. I don't see anything in there which supports your view.
Oh!, I suppose that you call Ācariya Buddhaghosa, an early master.

You know what the Buddha said: "500 years".
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Ven. Buddhaghosa is drawing out the meaning of the word by using other words which are similar, which is quite common for the commentaries. For example
It relishes (cakkhati), thus it is an eye (cakkhu); the meaning is that it enjoys a visible datum and turns it to account. It makes visible (rúpayati), thus it is a visible datum (rúpa); the meaning is that by undergoing an alteration in appearance (colour) it evidences what state is in the mind (lit. heart).

It hears (suóáti), thus it is an ear (sota). It is emitted (sappati), thus it is sound (sadda); the meaning is that it is uttered.

It smells (gháyati), thus it is a nose (ghána). It is smelt (gandhayati) thus it is odour (gandha); the meaning is that it betrays its own physical basis.

It evokes (avhayati) life (jìvita), thus it is a tongue (jivhá). Living beings taste (rasanti) it, thus it is flavour (rasa); the meaning is that they enjoy it.

It is the origin (áya) of vile (kucchita) states subject to cankers, thus it is a body (káya), origin being the place of arising. It is touched (phusiyati), thus it is a tangible datum (phoþþhabba).

It measures (munáti), thus it is a mind (mano).
Ven. Buddhaghosa also quotes from the Great Commentary, which pre-dates him.

The sum of causes too they call
“Facing its counterpart,” so all
Is in that sense “dependent,” as they tell;
This sum of causes too, as stated,
Gives fruits that rise associated,
So “co-arising” it is called as well.

This total conditionally, acting interdependently,
Arouses states together equally;
So this too is a reason here wherefore the Greatest Sage,
the Seer,
Gave to this term its form thus succinctly.


From what we know the other schools also understood "paṭicca" to mean "condition". How then is this translation "post-Buddhist"?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:42 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:35 pm An issue that is unaddressed is that the OP freely mixes Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit with Vedic Sanskrit. The two are not the same Sanskrit. Pratītya is likely used very differently in the Vedas and Upanishads. Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit is Sanskritized Prākrit, not true Sanskrit according to Vedic standards.
Then use pratī, if there is no reference but late BSk. As seen before.
Your redefining of pratītya is based in Veda-specific usage. BHS is based on Prākrit with a Sanskrit veneer. When Buddhist use the Sanskrit pratītya, they use it in its BHS sense, not in a Vedic sense.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:44 pm From what we know the other schools also understood "paṭicca" to mean "condition". How then is this translation "post-Buddhist"?
Where?
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:45 pm
ToVincent wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:42 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:35 pm An issue that is unaddressed is that the OP freely mixes Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit with Vedic Sanskrit. The two are not the same Sanskrit. Pratītya is likely used very differently in the Vedas and Upanishads. Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit is Sanskritized Prākrit, not true Sanskrit according to Vedic standards.
Then use pratī, if there is no reference but late BSk. As seen before.
Your redefining of pratītya is based in Veda-specific usage. BHS is based on Prākrit with a Sanskrit veneer. When Buddhist use the Sanskrit pratītya, they use it in its BHS sense, not in a Vedic sense.
I strongly advise the other readers to check the verb from which paticca & paccaya come from - namely patī / pratī.

At least until we know of a serious BHS dictionary.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:44 pm From what we know the other schools also understood "paṭicca" to mean "condition". How then is this translation "post-Buddhist"?
Where?
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The 6 causes and 4 conditions of the Vaibhāṣika would be an example. For the Mahāsāṃghika, we can look to the Śālistamba Sūtra.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Śālistamba is a very good sūtra IMO, irrespective of this thread.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Be more precise about those "early" suttas (with parallels, I presume).
Extracts, please.

Your story is getting a bit fuzzy.
Early masters of the 5th century CE.
A nominative that turns negative.
A meaning that is truly Buddhist from BHS.

I need a Nespresso.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

The languages of the EBTs, in case you did not know, include Pāli, Prākrit (including Gāndhārī), BHS (a composite language of several Prākrits), Chinese, and Tibetan. The Chinese translations date from 100AD to 900AD, unless I'm remembering the dating of Ven An Shigao wrong. The Tibetan texts are from a similar period, albeit later. BHS texts are very old, older than Chinese and Tibetan texts.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:05 pm The languages of the EBTs, in case you did not know, include Pāli, Prākrit (including Gāndhārī), BHS (a composite language of several Prākrits), Chinese, and Tibetan. The Chinese translations date from 100AD to 900AD, unless I'm remembering the dating of Ven An Shigao wrong. The Tibetan texts are from a similar period. BHS texts are very old, older than Chinese and Tibetan texts.
Extracts please.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

What extract would you like? An EBT with multilingual gloss? Which sutta? Not all of them will have Tibetan parallels.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:08 pm What extract would you like? An EBT with multilingual gloss? Which sutta? Not all of them will have Tibetan parallels.
Didn't you talk about Śālistamba Sūtra?
Let's start with that,, no?
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

That's not an EBT, at least not uncontroversially.

What do you want exactly, for me to quote from it?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:27 pm That's not an EBT, at least not uncontroversially.
What do you want exactly, for me to quote from it?
If it's not an EBT, no need for that.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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