The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

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ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:06 pm I can't answer the question because I've no clue what you are talking about or what you want me to substantiate by bringing up "bhava." You've clearly misunderstood me.

Are you asking me to "prove" that bhava is accusative? The issue is, I don't know how severely you've misread me.
You know exactly what I'm asking.
We are talking of the nominative declension of the right side of the pericope — aren't we?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

No, ToVincent. I really don't know what you want me to substantiate about "bhavo." As typical, I think you've not understood a word I said. The element on the right side is nominal. I've said this throughout my participation here. Why do you want a "grammatical reference" for it? I can copy-paste an inflection chart, but that wouldn't solve anything to do with this thread, which is mostly consistent on you labeling established translations as wrong and putting forward your own theories as "proper."

If you had read me properly, I was explaining why it is not an error for a nominal in an inflected language like Pāli to become an accusative in an analytic language like English. You were wrong to call these correct translations wrong. You weren't wrong to identify a nominal becoming an accusative. You were wrong to fault Ven Thanissaro's translation for it, however.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:13 pm No, ToVincent. I really don't know what you want me to substantiate about "bhavo." As typical, I think you've not understood a word I said. The element on the right side is nominal. I've said this throughout my participation here. Why do you want a "grammatical reference" for it?

If you had read me properly, I was explaining why it is not an error for a nominal in an inflected language like Pāli to become an accusative in an analytic language like English.
I don't care about English, or French, or Zulu.
I care about Pali.
What is the declension of bhavo?
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

The translations you are undermining are into English. You are faulting English-language renderings of Pāli.

If you really want a declension table laboriously copied out, give me a second, because I am on my phone. All the same, this table of inflections will establish nothing.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:17 pm The translations you are undermining are into English. You are faulting English-language renderings of Pāli.
Gee! — after "gish gallop" , we are into "appeal to the stone".

What is the declension of bhavo?

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There is a table here: https://justpaste.it/5j329
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Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Nom: -o
Voc: -a/-ā
Acc: -aṃ
Gen: -assa
Loc: -e/-asmiṃ/-amhi
Dat: -assa/-āya
Abl: -ā/-asmā/-amhā/-ato
Ins: -ena
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

This is just so pointless. Did you understand anything I typed to you? There is no stone fallacy.

Do you understand that a nominal in an inflected language can become an accusative in an analytic language? This is vital for you to understand if you want to suggest that certain English translations of Pāli are inaccurate or wrong.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:24 pm Nom: -o
Voc: -a/-ā
Acc: -aṃ
Gen: -assa
Loc: -e/-asmiṃ/-amhi
Dat: -assa/-āya
Abl: -ā/-asmā/-amhā/-ato
Ins: -ena
That settles it for me.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

You still don't get how you are wrong.

:shrug:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:25 pm Do you understand that a nominal in an inflected language can become an accusative in an analytic language?
References please, for this particular case.

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Condition is still a post-Buddhist meaning.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ven Thanissaro's translation of the pericope is a fine example that can serve as a reference.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:31 pm Ven Thanissaro's translation of the pericope is a fine example that can serve as a reference.
Too easy.
Give me a reference that a nominal in an inflected language can become an accusative in an analytic language - Coming from a grammarian, or a linguist, or whatever - that deals with this particular case.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's something too obvious for me to easily reference, tbh. Even within one language, the two can be inverted with the semantics preserved.

e.g. "The ball hit Lisa," and "Lisa was hit by the ball."

How much more between languages? It is this kind of difference that you are picking up on in these English translations.

With ignorance as condition, there are sankharas.
Conditioned by ignorance are the sankharas.
There are the sankharas with ignorance as (their) condition.
The sankharas are conditioned by ignorance.

These are four ways to communicate the same thing, taken from the DO pericope.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:42 pm It's something too obvious for me to easily reference, tbh.

With ignorance as condition, there are sankharas.
Conditioned by ignorance are the sankharas.
There are the sankharas with ignorance as (their) condition.
The sankharas are conditioned by ignorance.

These are four ways to communicate the same thing, taken from the DO pericope.
Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā.

So your point is that bhavo (a nominative) [corresponding to saṅkhārā above, in your example, to make it simpler], becomes an accusative when translated in English, or French (avec l'ignorance comme condition, sont les saṅkhārā).

Produce the formal proof please. Declaring it does not prove anything.


Tell us more about a nominal in an inflected language that becomes an accusative in an analytic language.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't see myself as needing a provide a formal proof that you would be unable to follow anyways if you can't as much as understand the simple sentences paired with the directly-related simple examples I am using here.

I asked my partner, who is the linguist, not I, how he would proceed in trying to communicate to you what I've been trying to communicate, and he suggested I link this Wikipedia entry and start again entirely.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic ... quivalence

We will be at a point where we can continue when you realize that the translations singled out in your OP are not wrong or incorrect. Otherwise, I fear that I can only expect more diversions, like requesting a declension table for bhava that proves nothing related to the claims in your OP, and no meaningful progress.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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