Present or Past

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Post Reply
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Present or Past

Post by Ceisiwr »

“so santuṭṭho hoti kāyaparihārikena cīvarena kucchiparihārikena piṇḍapātena. so yena yeneva pakkamati samādāyeva pakkamati. seyyathāpi nāma pakkhī sakuṇo yena yeneva ḍeti sapattabhārova ḍeti, evameva bhikkhu santuṭṭho hoti kāyaparihārikena cīvarena, kucchiparihārikena piṇḍapātena. so yena yeneva pakkamati samādāyeva pakkamati. so iminā ariyena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ anavajjasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti.

“so cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ cakkhundriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati cakkhundriyaṃ, cakkhundriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. sotena saddaṃ sutvā ... pe ... ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā ... pe ... jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā ... pe ... kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā ... pe ... manasā dhammaṃ viññāya na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ manindriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati manindriyaṃ manindriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. so iminā ariyena indriyasaṃvarena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ abyāsekasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti.
Is the meditative experience in the 1st paragraph in the present tense or past tense? Likewise is the seeing of forms etc here in the present tense or past tense?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Present or Past

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:21 pm
“so santuṭṭho hoti kāyaparihārikena cīvarena kucchiparihārikena piṇḍapātena. so yena yeneva pakkamati samādāyeva pakkamati. seyyathāpi nāma pakkhī sakuṇo yena yeneva ḍeti sapattabhārova ḍeti, evameva bhikkhu santuṭṭho hoti kāyaparihārikena cīvarena, kucchiparihārikena piṇḍapātena. so yena yeneva pakkamati samādāyeva pakkamati. so iminā ariyena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ anavajjasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti.

“so cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ cakkhundriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati cakkhundriyaṃ, cakkhundriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. sotena saddaṃ sutvā ... pe ... ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā ... pe ... jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā ... pe ... kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā ... pe ... manasā dhammaṃ viññāya na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ manindriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati manindriyaṃ manindriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. so iminā ariyena indriyasaṃvarena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ abyāsekasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti.
Is the meditative experience in the 1st paragraph in the present tense or past tense? Likewise is the seeing of forms etc here in the present tense or past tense?
The first paragraph is in the present tense, although I'm not sure whether it deals with meditative experiences; it says something along the lines of they experience a pure happiness or pleasure internally, by means of possessing sīla.

The second paragraph uses absolutives: "having seen a form with the eyes, they don't grasp the signs or grasp the details". The first bit is technically in the past tense, but the second bit describes (like the 1st paragraph) what they are doing now.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Present or Past

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:11 pm

The first paragraph is in the present tense, although I'm not sure whether it deals with meditative experiences; it says something along the lines of they experience a pure happiness or pleasure internally, by means of possessing sīla.

The second paragraph uses absolutives: "having seen a form with the eyes, they don't grasp the signs or grasp the details". The first bit is technically in the past tense, but the second bit describes (like the 1st paragraph) what they are doing now.
Thanks. I meant to post this
So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā piyarūpe rūpe na sārajjati, appiyarūpe rūpe na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyasati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso. Tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti yatthassa te pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.
Which is usually translated as
“Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters upon and abides in the first jhāna…With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters upon and abides in the second jhāna…With the fading away as well of rapture…he enters upon and abides in the third jhāna…With the abandoning of pleasure and pain…he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna…which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi? ... ript=latin

I wanted to see if "on seeing a form with the eye" etc is, based on the grammar, something which is happening during the 4th jhāna or after it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Present or Past

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:11 pm

The first paragraph is in the present tense, although I'm not sure whether it deals with meditative experiences; it says something along the lines of they experience a pure happiness or pleasure internally, by means of possessing sīla.

The second paragraph uses absolutives: "having seen a form with the eyes, they don't grasp the signs or grasp the details". The first bit is technically in the past tense, but the second bit describes (like the 1st paragraph) what they are doing now.
Thanks. I meant to post this
So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā piyarūpe rūpe na sārajjati, appiyarūpe rūpe na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyasati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso. Tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti yatthassa te pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti.
Which is usually translated as
“Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters upon and abides in the first jhāna…With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, he enters upon and abides in the second jhāna…With the fading away as well of rapture…he enters upon and abides in the third jhāna…With the abandoning of pleasure and pain…he enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna…which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

“On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi? ... ript=latin

I wanted to see if "on seeing a form with the eye" etc is, based on the grammar, something which is happening during the 4th jhāna or after it.
As per the first answer, it's the absolutive. Something like "Having seen a form with the eye...", he does something in the present tense.

Again, though, this doesn't look like it refers to what is happening in the 4th jhāna. It looks more like a separate pericope, or at least separate from the jhāna pericope which appears in MN27 and elsewhere.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Present or Past

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:30 pm

As per the first answer, it's the absolutive. Something like "Having seen a form with the eye...", he does something in the present tense.

Again, though, this doesn't look like it refers to what is happening in the 4th jhāna. It looks more like a separate pericope, or at least separate from the jhāna pericope which appears in MN27 and elsewhere.
Thank you.

:anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6492
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Present or Past

Post by Dhammanando »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:30 pm As per the first answer, it's the absolutive. Something like "Having seen a form with the eye...", he does something in the present tense.
Though this is most often the case with tvā-type absolutives, the grammarians did recognise a few other possibilities.

Some years ago I wrote the following summary:
In the ancient grammars the particles in -tvā, -tūna, and -tvāna have several more syntactical functions than one will find listed in Warder. It might be useful to list them. The examples below are taken from the Saddanīti of Aggavaṃsa and the Pāliveyyākaraṇa of Prince Vajirañāṇavarorasa.


1) Pubbakālakiriyā-uttarakālakiriyā.
Action denoted by the tvā-particle comes first (pubbakālakiriyā); action denoted by finite verb comes after (uttarakālakiriyā).

dhammaṃ sutvā gāmaṃ paccāgacchati.
Having heard the Dhamma he returned to the village.

kasitvā vapati.
Having ploughed [the field] he sows [the seed].

2) Samānakālakiriyā.
Indicates simultaneity of the actions denoted by the finite verb and the tvā-particle.

chattaṃ gahetvā gacchati.
He walks holding a parasol.

3) Aparakālakiriyā.
Action denoted by the tvā-particle follows an action denoted by a finite verb. Prince V. gives the example:

dhammāsane nisīdi cittavījaniṃ gahetvā.
He sat down on the Dhamma-teaching seat and took hold of the decorated fan.

I don't recall ever meeting with a sentence like the above in any actual text.

Aggavaṃsa gives:

dvāraṃ āvaritvā pavisati.
He entered and [then] closed the door.

He states that this sentence might also be samānakālakiriyā if the man happened to close the door while he was entering.

4) Pariyosānakālakiriyā.
According to Prince V. this means that the tvā-particle reiterates some finite verb in order to show that the action denoted by the latter is completed.

yena bhagavā tenupasankami, upasankamitvā ... nisīdi.
He approached to where the Blessed ŏne was; having approached ... he sat down.

I think the Prince's definition is too narrow and makes the distinction between pubbakālakiriyā and pariyosānakālakiriyā seem a bit artificial and unnecessary. It is also at odds with how pariyosānakālakiriyā is used by vinayadharas. For them it doesn't entail repetition of a finite verb, but rather, that the action of the tvā-particle (or equivalent) must terminate in (or be brought to an end by: pariyosāpeti) the action of the finite verb that follows. For example, in the phrase "sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropeyya" it makes a material difference in assessing a monk's guilt whether sañcicca is construed as pubbakālakiriyā or pariyosānakālakiriyā; vinayadharas are at pains to stress that it is the latter.

5) Visesanaṃ (adjectival)

ṭhapetvā dve aggasāvake avasesā arahattaṃ pāpuṇiṃsu.
The two chief disciples set aside, all the rest attained arahantship.
Apart from the two chief disciples, all the rest attained arahantship.

6) Kiriyāvisesanaṃ (adverbial)

tīṇi ratanāni ṭhapetvā aññaṃ me paṭisaraṇaṃ n'atthi.
There is not, setting aside the three jewels, another refuge for me.
There is no other refuge for me apart from the three jewels.

The distinction between #5 and 6 doesn't come across very clearly in English translation. In #5 ṭhapetvā functions as an adjective qualifying dve aggasāvake. In #6 it functions as an adverb qualifying n'atthi.

7) Hetu (causal).
The action of the (often unstated) subject is expressed in the tvā-particle and is the cause of the action indicated by the finite verb.

gacchāmi'dāni nibbānaṃ, yattha gantvā na socati.
I go now to Nibbāna, where, because of going there, one sorrows not.
I go now to Nibbāna, whither having gone one sorrows not.

In this causal usage the subject of the finite verb will often differ from that of the tvā-particle:

sīhaṃ disvā bhayaṃ uppajjati.
On account of seeing a lion fear arises [in him].
Fear arises in him at the sight of a lion.

ghataṃ pivitvā balaṃ jāyate.
He, having drunk ghee, strength arises [in him].
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
cittaanurakkho
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:12 pm

Re: Present or Past

Post by cittaanurakkho »

... and the Pāliveyyākaraṇa of Prince Vajirañāṇavarorasa.
Bhante, is there any link to the source for this text?
Thanks.
Post Reply