Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

The Pali Text Society dictionary (PTS) , on which most contemporary dictionaries are based, is a great dictionary when it comes to compare Pali words, with the equivalent Sanskrit words and their roots.

However, this dictionary uses very often post-Buddhist meanings, if compared with the Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary.

Moreover, many definitions in the PTS, are based on an interpretation from the reading of the suttas, regardless of any comparison with the Sanskrit equivalences, which make much more sense.

What do you think?
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Good dictionaries are based upon usage because the semantics of our human languages are based on usages. Etymology is a history of historical usages for a word. Scholarly dictionaries are not compiled through reconstructing the "true meanings" of words as based on historical etymological roots that stretch back to a theorized and generally-reconstructed proto-stage of the language (such as "Proto-Indo-Iranian," etc.) in question. Because the PTS is a dictionary of a Middle Indic Prākrit, Vedic roots can be found for almost all Pāli words and are generally included in the dictionary entries. Such is the case with deeply related language. French words will similarly often have a Laton cognate. That is not surprising at all. One would not use the word senses Cicero employed to divine the meaning of a phrase in Old French or even proto-Romance. These roots do not determine the semantic value of the words they correspond to. It is usage that determines that.

The PTS is a scholarly and highly reliable dictionary.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:51 pm These roots do not determine the semantic value of the words they correspond to. It is usage that determines that.
Really?

Then why most of the meanings in the PTS are taken from the MW?
And why does those meanings are very often taken from post-Buddhist meanings in the MW?

By the way, do you have a fairly accurate list of the pre-Buddhist Prākrit literature?
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Senses and definitions from Monier-Williams' Sanskrit dictionary can appear in the PTS dictionary if there is a significant overlap in meaning. As for meanings being "post-Buddhist," this is a perennial misconception for you. You frame your own imaginative idiosyncratic semantic inventions as being meanings that the Buddha would have used. You dismiss serious qualified scholars as using "post-Buddhist meanings" in order to make your own unscholarly theories seem reasonable. This has been commented on numerous times, and is all to-do with your pedaling of personal theories concerning "echt Buddhism," "the CI," "the KA," various capitalizations of "self," etc. The rest of your post does not need addressing.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ssasny
Posts: 379
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ssasny »

The much venerated Pali-English Dictionary (PED) produced by the Pali Text Society nearly 100 years ago (1925) is an excellent resource for all English speaking Pali students. It almost always includes references to places in the Canon where the entry word can be found and was created using sound lexicographical principles- an English language definition was drawn up based on a comparison of multiple usages of the entry word across the Canon.

Some beginning Pali students prefer the earlier Childers Dictionary of the Pali Language at first, as it is arranged in western alphabetical order. It may have more commentarial Pali words than PED. But the on-line PED is really the better dictionary.

The newer Pali Text Society's dictionary, Margaret Cone's Dictionary of Pali (DOP) is a much more ambitious project and is possibly the last word for P-E dictionaries for a long while.

The wonderful Danish Critical Pali Dictionary, sadly left unfinished, is also an excellent resource.

For the most part, PED remains the best everyday go-to dictionary for English speakers.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:06 pm ...
Post-Buddhist words' definitions from the post-Buddhist Indian literature, are often very different from their pre-Buddhist counterparts in the MW.

Your very personal rationale is flawed.

Therefore, I formulate my question again: "do you have a fairly list of the pre-Buddhist Prakrit literature?"
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by Coëmgenu »

That is not relevant, ToVincent. I am not a specialist in Middle Indic Prākrit and neither of you. Neither of us would be expected to have a lexical compilation with individuated entries of all Prākrit vocabulary of this Prākrit we call "Pāli." This is neither a relevant nor fruitful thing to be asking for.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:22 pm That is not relevant, ToVincent. I am not a specialist in Middle Indic Prākrit and neither of you. Neither of us would be expected to have a lexical compilation with individuated entries of all Prākrit vocabulary of this Prākrit we call "Pāli." This is neither a relevant nor fruitful thing to be asking for.
Why woudn't it be relevant?
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Your OP is asking if the PTS is a reliable dictionary or not. Me either having or not having such a list is neither relevant to that OP nor relevant to my comments in response to it. If you feel that there is a relevant connection between these things, it is up to you to advocate for that relevancy and defend it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:29 pm Your OP is asking if the PTS is a reliable dictionary or not. Me either having or not having such a list is neither relevant to that OP nor relevant to my comments in response to it. If you feel that there is a relevant connection between these things, it is up to you to advocate for that relevancy and defend it.
Enters Sophistry, I see.

If the PTS uses post-Buddhist meanings from the MW, that are different from the pre-Buddhist meanings from the MW, how reliable is it in this case?
.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ssasny
Posts: 379
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ssasny »

If you are unsatisfied with the definitions provided in PED, have you compared them to those found in Critical Pali Dictionary? (up to karoti)
Or perhaps DOP?
Have you found them more suitable? In what way?
Last edited by ssasny on Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The PTS does not "use post-Buddhist meanings." This was discussed already:
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:06 pmAs for meanings being "post-Buddhist," this is a perennial misconception for you. You frame your own imaginative idiosyncratic semantic inventions as being meanings that the Buddha would have used. You dismiss serious qualified scholars as using "post-Buddhist meanings" in order to make your own unscholarly theories seem reasonable. This has been commented on numerous times, and is all to-do with your pedaling of personal theories concerning "echt Buddhism," "the CI," "the KA," various capitalizations of "self," etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:37 pm If you are unsatisfied with the definitions provided in PED, have you compared them to those found in Critical Pali Dictionary? (up to karoti)
Have you found them more suitable? In what way?
I am not unsatisfied with the definitions provided in PED - I am just unsatisfied with the post-Buddhist definitions taken from the MW.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ssasny
Posts: 379
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ssasny »

Perhaps you would be happier looking here:

https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is the PTS a reliable dictionary?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:38 pm The PTS does not "use post-Buddhist meanings." This was discussed already:
This is utterly ridiculous.
When the PTS uses a definition from a Sanskrit text a thousand years after Buddha's time, instead of using a different definition from a pre-Buddhist text, I call that unreliable.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Post Reply