Pali Term: Dukkha

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Kumara
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by Kumara »

Dmytro wrote:Hello Pali friends,

To interpret this key term, it's worthwhile to investigate the context where another word is used in place of 'dukkha', Bhara sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This parallel with 'bhāra' (burdern, load) helps to understand "dukkha" as something diffucult to bear, a hardship. This is also an etymological origin of this word, where "du" refers to "difficult, hard", and "kha" to "bear, endure".
Thanks. I've been wondering about this of late. If kha is "bear, endure" (which we can relate with khamati), how would sukha fit in? Easy to bear?
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bharadwaja
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by bharadwaja »

A very interesting question. Sukha/Dukkha distinction seems to be related to the axle-wheel of an ox-cart.

When the axle is in place, the cart moves smoothly (with sukha/equanimity). Else it rattles/wobbles (with dukkha/flux).

These words are probably so old i.e. going back to Proto-Indo-European times that they may have meant other things at other times.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by Assaji »

Kumara wrote:Thanks. I've been wondering about this of late. If kha is "bear, endure" (which we can relate with khamati), how would sukha fit in? Easy to bear?
According to Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary:

sukh/a [L=245611] mfn. (said to be fr. 5. su + 3. kha , and to mean originally " having a good axle-hole " ; possibly a Prakrit form of su-stha q.v. ; cf. duHkha) running swiftly or easily (only applied to cars or chariots , superl. sukh/a-tama) , easy RV.
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by binocular »

Ven. Thanissaro mentioned once that explaining "dukkha" with the axle of a wheel analogy can give rise to the idea that the key to happiness is to have a well-fitting and greased axle; that the key to happiness is to make sure that the wheel runs smoothly on the axle. As opposed to doing away with the cycling altogether.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by Assaji »

binocular wrote:Ven. Thanissaro mentioned once that explaining "dukkha" with the axle of a wheel analogy can give rise to the idea that the key to happiness is to have a well-fitting and greased axle; that the key to happiness is to make sure that the wheel runs smoothly on the axle. As opposed to doing away with the cycling altogether.
Peace and tranquility in the eye of a hurricane.

Seems like "dukkha" and 'sukha" are homonyms with two very different meanings: one originates from the "kha" - "axle-hole", and another from "stha" - "standing , staying , abiding , being situated in , existing or being in or on or among".
The first meaning is having a bad or good axle-hole, and the second is suffering or happiness.
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by ToVincent »

Did people understand the real meaning of dukkha? — what's underlying that pain.

There are a lot of etymological interpretations on this thread — yet it seems that they missed the gist of dukkha's meaning.

I'm an amateur meaningologist, as you must know by now. And as such, I had searched (with much "amare",) the proper historical meaning of this word.
By the way, it also involves sukha.

The historical meaning of dukka is duḥkha (duṣ-kha) = the evil, bad, (inferior), corrupted, wrong rooting up. While sukha (su-kha) is the pleasant, virtuous (superior) rooting up.


ख kha (obj. khan)
खन् √ khan
- root up RV. VS. AV.

दुष् duṣ
- to become bad or corrupted , to be defiled or impure , be wrong AitBr. ChUp. (and later on in MBh. => these meanings crossed Buddha's time).

दुस् dus
- implying evil , bad.

सु su
- good , excellent , right , virtuous , beautiful, easy , ... etc.

---

Let's see these Sutta/Sutra which has a perfect parallel:
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/sn22.60
What does they say? :
“There is, Mahali, a cause (hetu) and condition (paccaya) for the defilement of beings; beings are defiled with cause and condition. There is a cause and condition for the purification of beings; beings are purified with cause and condition.”
....
“If, Mahali, this form were exclusively suffering, immersed in suffering, steeped in suffering, and if it were not also steeped in pleasure, beings would not become enamoured with it. But because form is pleasurable, immersed in pleasure, steeped in pleasure, and is not steeped only in suffering, beings become enamoured with it. By being enamoured with it, they are captivated by it, and by being captivated by it they are defiled. This, Mahali, is a cause and condition for the defilement of beings; it is thus that beings are defiled with cause and condition.
SN 22.60
_________

Pūraṇa is thus a fool, he does not differentiate and is unskilful. Denying causation, he says this: ‘There is no cause, there is no condition for the defilement of living beings; there is no cause, there is no condition for the purification of living beings.’ Why is that? There is a cause, there is a condition for the defilement of living beings; there is a cause, there is a condition for the purification of living beings.’
.....
“Mahānāma, if bodily form were entirely dukkha and unpleasant, not followed by pleasure and not nourishing pleasure, being without pleasure, then living beings would not give rise to delight and attachment because of it. Mahānāma, because bodily form is not entirely dukkha and unpleasant, but is followed by pleasure and nourishes pleasure, being not without pleasure, therefore living beings are defiled by attachment to bodily form. Because of being defiled by attachment, they are tied to it. Because of being tied to it, there is vexation.
SA 81
I would rather translate hetu & paccaya as cause & feedback (as explained in another thread) — however, your choice is to keep it as usually translated; namely cause & condition.


Dukkha must not just be seen as mere "pain" (ŚBr). But as pain that comes from an improper rooting up.
Thinking that there could be some pleasure in khandhas, is the inferior (bad) kind of rooting up.
To see pleasure in the experience/feeling (vedana) of a form (rūpa), and acknowledging (sañña*) and agreeing with (sañña*) this co-action (saṅkhārā), is dukkha.
Because this is not the proper rooting up of pain. This is pain itself.
In other words, one must root up the khandhas — otherwise there is going to be pain.
*These are the other historical meanings of sañña; apart from the usual "perception".

See SN 12.55
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Kumara
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by Kumara »

binocular wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:25 am Ven. Thanissaro mentioned once that explaining "dukkha" with the axle of a wheel analogy can give rise to the idea that the key to happiness is to have a well-fitting and greased axle; that the key to happiness is to make sure that the wheel runs smoothly on the axle. As opposed to doing away with the cycling altogether.
Nothing wrong with that analogy and the idea it gives rise to, because sukha/happiness is of various kinds. Yes, to do away with it is the highest happiness, but while form remains, having the wheel running smoothly is a kind of happiness.
ToVincent
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Re: Pali Term: Dukkha

Post by ToVincent »

Kumara wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:15 am ... , but while form remains, having the wheel running smoothly is a kind of happiness.
While form remains, having the wheel running smoothly is DUKKHA (defilement).
As seen in the post before, it is dukkha/duḥkha, as long as the pleasure is not rooted up.

While form remains, having the wheel running smoothly is false happiness — It is a wrong rooting up — it is dukkha.

This is a nuance that cannot allow to see any happiness in a form — or any khandha; or any co-action of khandhas
Mendicants, form is suffering.
“Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, dukkhaṁ.
The cause and condition? (feedback) that gives rise to form is also suffering.
Yopi hetu yopi paccayo rūpassa uppādāya, sopi dukkho.
Since form has become by what is suffering, how could it be happiness?
Dukkhasambhūtaṁ, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ kuto sukhaṁ bhavissati.
SN22.19-20 / SA 12
And what is suffering for instances?
- death, the feedback (paccaya) of birth (the cause/hetu), is suffering.
- the feedback (paccaya) of "not to obtain what one wants", from craving (cause/hetu), is suffering.
- etc.
(See MN 9)

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It seems that you have misinterpreted your pedagogue, Bhaddanta Aggacitta Mahāthera. (https://justpaste.it/Kumara)

Thanissaro is wrong when he says "That the key to happiness is to make sure that the wheel runs smoothly on the axle. As opposed to doing away with the cycling altogether" — (if that translation of dukkha as "axle of a wheel", is even valid, by the way).
And you are also wrong in saying "Nothing wrong with that analogy".

There is way too much ambiguity in your post.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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