Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

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DooDoot
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 am If you can quote a sutta referring to a self that is reborn it would give me much to think about. The quotes you included here are about the rebirth of a person, man, woman, being, etc. as you said but not about the rebirth of a self.
Self, being, person, etc, is the same thing. For example, SN 12.2 defines a self-view as clinging. SN 23.2 defines "a being" as clinging. SN 22.22 defines a 'person' as clinging.
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amI can imagine aggregates popping over while reading those quotes
Your imagination must be very fertile because there are no aggregates popping up in any of those quotes. Self, being, person, etc, is the same thing; as I posted; as the suttas describe.
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 am but don't see them supporting the birth of a self.
You appear to be clinging to some doctrine you have personally invented. Self, being, person, etc, is the same thing; as I posted; as the suttas describe.
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amThe self can only arise by having wrong view as I understand it, so I see self being born when you 'choose' to identify yourself with your body, your consciousness, your intentions or, as I posted before , a crab of the past.
The above sounds illogical because the above says as "self" arises after there is a "you" and a "your".
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amTo me the statement 'No self is undeclared by the buddha' is irrelevant.
The Buddha never said above.
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amNothing is self in reality and it can only be born by viewing things wrongly (as I do).
Yes, what is reborn is a self-view.
Attanā hi kataṃ pāpaṃ, attanā saṅkilissati; Attanā akataṃ pāpaṃ, attanāva visujjhati; Suddhī asuddhi paccattaṃ, nāñño aññaṃ visodhaye.

By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:55 am ...
Your imagination must be very fertile because there are no aggregates popping up in any of those quotes. Self, being, person, etc, is the same thing; as I posted; as the suttas describe.
...
You appear to be clinging to some doctrine you have personally invented. Self, being, person, etc, is the same thing; as I posted; as the suttas describe.
...
I'm only trying to stablish right view to get rid of dukkha. When one does not see clearly there is confusion as you can see.

Good to know that self, being, person are the same thing: clinging. No substance there, ok. But when I read 'man' or 'woman' I can think of aggregates. I didn't notice that your quotes refer to rebirth on hell and it's not clear to me what "in a good place" refers to but if we are talking about rebirth in human realm I can think of aggregates popping up because I believe men and women have bodies, consciousness, feelings, intentions, etc.. If what is subject to continuity is clinging then... I don't know what to think about 'man' and 'woman'.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:55 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amTo me the statement 'No self is undeclared by the buddha' is irrelevant.
The Buddha never said above.
Ok. And I didn't meant the Buddha, I meant people who claim that in fact the Buddha never declared "no self" but only "not self". I don't see the point of highlighting that.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:55 am ...
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:04 amThe self can only arise by having wrong view as I understand it, so I see self being born when you 'choose' to identify yourself with your body, your consciousness, your intentions or, as I posted before , a crab of the past.
The above sounds illogical because the above says as "self" arises after there is a "you" and a "your".
...
I tried to say that the way I saw it was there is no continuity of a self. But it seems indeed clinging keeps going on. I don't know, someday I may understand.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:13 am I tried to say that the way I saw it was there is no continuity of a self. But it seems indeed clinging keeps going on. I don't know, someday I may understand.
The way i understand it is as i originally posted, namely, the teaching of 'anatta' & 'rebirth' do not really mix. Anatta is supramundane & noble, per MN 117. 'Rebirth' is mundane & results in attachment, per MN 117. I never gained the impression from the suttas the rebirth teachings were for those practicing not-self. Rebirth teachings are generally for ordinary people, so they make good karma.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by Dhammanando »

Thomas Searcher wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:56 pm If there is no person, is there any specialness or sacredness to sentience in Buddhism? Why do we value a human being (or even a cat) more than a rock.
For moral motivation, the recognition of the sentience of others, along with the golden rule, are deemed sufficient. Adding the concept of a supposed "sanctity of life" to the mixture would be just painting legs on a snake.


"All tremble at the rod. All fear death. Comparing others with oneself, one should neither kill nor cause to kill."
Dhammapada 129
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Some contributions that have deviated too far off topic have been move to a new topic entitled: Human birth is precious and rare

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:57 am Rebirth teachings are generally for ordinary people, so they make good karma.
you say ordinary, yet can't grasp the teaching of rebirth yourself


hence ordinary would be an improvement
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:57 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:13 am I tried to say that the way I saw it was there is no continuity of a self. But it seems indeed clinging keeps going on. I don't know, someday I may understand.
The way i understand it is as i originally posted, namely, the teaching of 'anatta' & 'rebirth' do not really mix. Anatta is supramundane & noble, per MN 117. 'Rebirth' is mundane & results in attachment, per MN 117. I never gained the impression from the suttas the rebirth teachings were for those practicing not-self. Rebirth teachings are generally for ordinary people, so they make good karma.
So what you say is that the Buddha taught rebirth to worldlings who are caught in samsara, he taught their reality. But rebirth doesn't mix, it doesn't apply to noble ones who see things as they are. Noble ones are discerning the truth of anatta thus they are finding liberation from samsara (no more rebirth for them). You say rebirth is not Dhamma, it's not the reality of Noble ones, which is the ultimate reality. Is this what you are saying?

DooDoot wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 am ...
Svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhī

The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.’


:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :bow:
The above obviously rules out "rebirth" as True Dhamma.
...
Obvious how? Do you mean that rebirth is no Dhamma because it can't be experienced by Noble ones? Wasn't visible to the Buddha that beings are trapped in a cycle of rebirth? I don't mean that the body carries on but there is a cycle of selves grasping at the aggregates. Isn't it?

As I see it so far, I think because of the conditions and actions of the present life of this deluded 'being' (me, I'm a being from my deluded point of view which is not noble) a rebirth is going to happen on some realm when I die because of this clinging (of mine) is one condition for it. So, some set of aggregates including a physical body if in the human or the animal realm, establishes because of the conditions and actions of the past life of a being (me when I was alive), and it looks like a being to any deluded beings (like the one reborn who is setting a wrong view of itself and others) but not to noble persons, of course not, they don't see selves were there are not.

I don't know, I see there's a long way to go :? at least for me
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pm So what you say is that the Buddha taught rebirth to worldlings...
What is translated as "rebirth" is a moral teaching about kamma & the destinations (results) of kamma. MN 117 says the worldly right view sides with merit (morality).
mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pmObvious how? Do you mean that rebirth is no Dhamma because it can't be experienced by Noble ones?
Yes.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pm Wasn't visible to the Buddha that beings are trapped in a cycle of rebirth?
The suttas say the Buddha used the psychic power of Divine Eye to observe the moral rise & fall of beings. Not all Noble Ones, including Arahants, had the divine eye. Regardless, the Dhamma refuge and all suttas about it never ever refer to the Divine Eye as a means of verifying Dhamma. For example, all suttas on this topic are as follows:
Then the Venerable Upavaṇa approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the directly visible Dhamma, the directly visible Dhamma.’ In what way, venerable sir, is the Dhamma directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise?”

“Here, Upavaṇa, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu experiences the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for forms exists internally thus: ‘There is in me lust for forms internally.’ Since that is so, Upavaṇa, the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.70/en/bodhi
“Master Gotama, it is said: ‘Directly visible nibbāna, directly visible nibbāna.’ In what way is nibbāna directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise?”

(1) “Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when lust is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. It is in this way that nibbāna is directly visible.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.55/en/bodhi
“Master Gotama, it is said: ‘A directly visible Dhamma, a directly visible Dhamma.’ In what way is the Dhamma directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise?”

(1) “Brahmin, one excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, intends for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he experiences mental suffering and dejection. But when lust is abandoned, he does not intend for his own affliction, for the affliction of others, or for the affliction of both, and he does not experience mental suffering and dejection. One excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, engages in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when lust is abandoned, he does not engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. One excited by lust, overcome by lust, with mind obsessed by it, does not understand as it really is his own good, the good of others, or the good of both. But when lust is abandoned, he understands as it really is his own good, the good of others, and the good of both. It is in this way, brahmin, that the Dhamma is directly visible … to be personally experienced by the wise.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.54/en/bodhi
As for if the Buddha saw "rebirth", this is debatable. What he certainly saw was how X kamma leads to Y result.

I will reply to the remainder of your post at a later time.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

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mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pm As I see it so far, I think because of the conditions and actions of the present life of this deluded 'being' (me, I'm a being from my deluded point of view which is not noble) a rebirth is going to happen on some realm when I die because of this clinging (of mine) is one condition for it.
To me, the above is speculation. There appears no evidence for it.

However, what I am certain about is because of the conditions and actions of the present moment of this deluded 'being' (me, I'm a being from my deluded point of view which is not noble) a 'rebirth' is going to happen many times in some mental realm before we die because of this clinging (of mine) is one condition for it.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pmSo, some set of aggregates including a physical body if in the human or the animal realm, establishes because of the conditions and actions of the past life of a being (me when I was alive), and it looks like a being to any deluded beings (like the one reborn who is setting a wrong view of itself and others) but not to noble persons, of course not, they don't see selves were there are not.
To me, all the above says is that in the future, due to self-delusions, the self-delusions will continue into the future. If you are 30 years old and live as long as the Buddha, if your mind doesn't not reach stream-entry, the self-delusions will continue for another 50 years. 50 more years of self-delusions. 50 more years of dukkha is not very nice. It would be most wonderful to live the next 50 years free from dukkha. When you post about future lives, your post seems to ignore the present reality that self-delusions will continue to afflict your mind in the present if you are not enlightened.

If there is another life and more future lives, then many more 80 year lifetimes of self-delusions, until 80,000,000 billion years of self-delusions composed of 80,000,000,000 trillion self-delusions.

Therefore, if the self-delusions are not stopped now, today, when will they be stopped? If self-delusions are not stopped in this life, then what makes you think they will be stopped in the next life? :shrug:

:alien:

As for "aggregates", the Buddha did not appear to teach about "aggregates" for the purpose of "rebirth teachings". I doubt we will find any "rebirth teachings" about "aggregates". The "rebirth" teachings are similar to the teachings below, which does not mention to word "aggregates" (although the word "kaya/body" can refer to the aggregates):
'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The above teachings focus on kamma rather than aggregates.

The purpose of the "aggregate teachings" is when the five aggregates are seen & viewed as the "five aggregates", there is no attributing "self" to the aggregates. Therefore the purpose of the aggregates teachings is to lead to Emptiness, to Not-Self, to Nibbana, to Non-Birth, Non-Death.

You keep posting about "aggregates". The "rebirth" teachings appear not about aggregates but appear about X, Y, X type of action leading to X, Y, Z type of result and destination.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:40 pmI don't know, I see there's a long way to go :? at least for me
Yes, there is a long way because it appears yet seeen clearly how certain actions in the present lead to certain results in the present or near future. The suttas say:
“Monks, not understanding and not penetrating four noble truths, both you and I have wandered and roamed for such a very long time.

“Catunnaṁ, bhikkhave, ariyasaccānaṁ ananubodhā appaṭivedhā evamidaṁ dīghamaddhānaṁ sandhāvitaṁ saṁsaritaṁ mamañceva tumhākañca.

DN 16
The Buddha said (in AN 3.61) those who attribute past life kamma to their present circumstances remain "unprotected". Similarly, if it cannot be seen how certain actions in the present lead to certain results in the present, one remains unprotected. The "rebirth" teachings are about "kamma". If "kamma" is not understood then I doubt "rebirth" can be understood.

Kind regards :)
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by mjaviem »

Thank you DooDoot for your replies. I appreciate them. And I appreciate your interpretations of the teachings, I don't know if you are quite right or quite wrong but I intend to learn from everything.

Kamma and morality is certainly something I want to ask in this forum, probably in a new thread.

Step by step I hope we all stop delusions and get free from dukkha.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:31 pm Thank you DooDoot for your replies. I appreciate them. And I appreciate your interpretations of the teachings, I don't know if you are quite right or quite wrong but I intend to learn from everything.

Kamma and morality is certainly something I want to ask in this forum, probably in a new thread.

Step by step I hope we all stop delusions and get free from dukkha.
:thanks: :anjali: :bow: :bow:
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by whynotme »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:33 am I don't want to be a killjoy in this party but we are not going to survive death. If someone is born in Tusida heaven due to the kamma we sow, that being is not us, it's somebody else. Even if that being can recollect this life of us, he/she/it is not us. That being can push its way to identify itself with us but that would be only a delusion.

Am I getting the picture rightly?
If you are intelligent then you can look into reality. There are two types of self

The first is momentary self, it changes moment to moment. Almost all wrong views about self is a version of this momentary self.

This momentary self changes slowly, so it creates the illusion that it does not change. But your whole body changes totally after some time, on different level. Think about a body of a child weights like 10kg, then think about an adult 70kg. The difference is 60kg of change.

The child body is dead, and the adult body is born. It's almost a new body because even old cells in the child body are replaced. Like a river, the stream always changes. Some cells may not be replaced, but on lower level, the molecules of the cell will be replaced. So everything changes.

Dead and rebirth don't happen only after death, but even on this life. After sometimes your whole old body is replaced, it's equivalent to the dead of the old body and rebirth of a new body. But both are the same person. So you and your next life are not different, death is just a change of the bodies.

This leads to the consideration of the second self. The first self is the momentary self and it's versions. The second self is individual self.

The individual self is the true self. All momentary selves belong to a single stream. This individual self is the source of all momentary selves. Each person is individual, so your next lives or past lives still belong to this same individual. This individual self is also called nibbana, a single point outside of space and time.

Nibbana is the stopping of all momentary self, but individual self is still intact. When a being is alive, it's possible to differentiate this person or that person. But without any momentary self, there's no way tell the difference between selves in nibbana. It's just disappeared into nothingness. The individual self is still there, but there is no way to recognize it, nibbana.

All this fact can be seen on this life, it doesn't need waiting for the next life. All life and death can be seen on this very life.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by mjaviem »

whynotme wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:38 pm ... There are two types of self
The first is momentary self, it changes moment to moment...
... The second self is individual self.
... This individual self is also called nibbana, a single point outside of space and time...
I thin we agree nothing should be considered I, me, mine or myself. About a being outside space and time which happens to be us I see it as just a view, a way to understand the world/universe to which we shouldn't cling so it can be right or it can be wrong but I believe the answer is not in the Buddha's discourses. I can't refute your view of a true self found with Nibbana, I can only recommend you to be prepared to accept that there can be no self at all, this could help to let go any wrong view you could be holding, I mean don't cling to the idea that you are rightly seeing the picture, I surely am not seeing it clearly.
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by Mudita1 »

Well done in feeling closer to anatta compared to a year ago, you made progress!
Only Arahant accepted anatta, as he experienced and seeing it by himself.

What we discuss here is booked knowledge on anatta.

If you see 5 aggregates - body as described by Buddha as foam, then this continuous foam forming (is impermanent) and de-forming (also impermanent) phenomena itself is not controllable by anyone, not by someone inside our body, someone outside our body, etc...but just a mind stream (mind stream of samsara continues), just like a dream - as we have not awaken

Will this offer a better means to understand?
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Re: Theravāda, Anatta, and Mindstreams

Post by confusedlayman »

Mudita1 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 am Well done in feeling closer to anatta compared to a year ago, you made progress!
Only Arahant accepted anatta, as he experienced and seeing it by himself.

What we discuss here is booked knowledge on anatta.

If you see 5 aggregates - body as described by Buddha as foam, then this continuous foam forming (is impermanent) and de-forming (also impermanent) phenomena itself is not controllable by anyone, not by someone inside our body, someone outside our body, etc...but just a mind stream (mind stream of samsara continues), just like a dream - as we have not awaken

Will this offer a better means to understand?
in order to see it u need to fabricate thought and imagine it in that way.. u need to see impermanent of thought itself
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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