Overlord and Mara

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asahi
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Overlord and Mara

Post by asahi »

:lol:
It seems Pajapati was taken as Mara and sometimes translated as overlord
But at the same time found Abhibhu also get translated as overlord ? So which is correct ? Why translated as overlord ?


:thanks:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Overlord and Mara

Post by Dhammanando »

The name Abhibhū can be either an alternative name for the gods in the impercipient world or else it can refer to those formless gods whose kamma has led them to rebirth among the Vehapphala Brahmās (i.e., the inhabitants of a fourth rūpa jhāna heaven) rather than to the more usual destination for four-aggregate gods, which is the formless world.

In Pali sources there are two beings with name Pajāpati.

From the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names:
1. Pajāpati.– A name given to Māra, because he uses his power over all creatures. M.i.2; MA.i.28.

2. Pajāpati.– One of the kings of the devas, mentioned with Sakka, Varuṇa, Īsāna, etc. S.i.219; D.i.244; in J.v.28 he is mentioned with Varuṇa and Soma; see also D.ii.274; DA.iii.709.

Buddhaghosa says (SA.i.262) that he, among the gods, was like Sakka in looks and that he lived to the same age, but in the assembly he occupied the second seat. He is sometimes mentioned with Brahmā, as distinct from him. J.vi.568, 571; M.i.140, 327, 329.

In the Āṭānāṭiya Sutta (D.iii.204) he is mentioned among the Mahā-yakkhā, to be invoked by followers of the Buddha in times of danger.
As for the meanings of their names, Abhibhū literally means "One Become Superior" and Pajāpati literally means "Lord of the Generation".

I think "Overlord" would be a defensible rendering for either name (if one is going to insist on translating them), though if the text contains both then it would be better to give them different names.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
asahi
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Re: Overlord and Mara

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:42 am The name Abhibhū can be either an alternative name for the gods in the impercipient world or else it can refer to those formless gods whose kamma has led them to rebirth among the Vehapphala Brahmās (i.e., the inhabitants of a fourth rūpa jhāna heaven) rather than to the more usual destination for four-aggregate gods, which is the formless world.

In Pali sources there are two beings with name Pajāpati.

From the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names:
1. Pajāpati.– A name given to Māra, because he uses his power over all creatures. M.i.2; MA.i.28.

2. Pajāpati.– One of the kings of the devas, mentioned with Sakka, Varuṇa, Īsāna, etc. S.i.219; D.i.244; in J.v.28 he is mentioned with Varuṇa and Soma; see also D.ii.274; DA.iii.709.

Buddhaghosa says (SA.i.262) that he, among the gods, was like Sakka in looks and that he lived to the same age, but in the assembly he occupied the second seat. He is sometimes mentioned with Brahmā, as distinct from him. J.vi.568, 571; M.i.140, 327, 329.

In the Āṭānāṭiya Sutta (D.iii.204) he is mentioned among the Mahā-yakkhā, to be invoked by followers of the Buddha in times of danger.
As for the meanings of their names, Abhibhū literally means "One Become Superior" and Pajāpati literally means "Lord of the Generation".

I think "Overlord" would be a defensible rendering for either name (if one is going to insist on translating them), though if the text contains both then it would be better to give them different names.
Why do you say formless gods karma led them to rebirth as Brahma (form sphere) ?

So if Pajapati were to occupied the second seat below Sakka does that means his residing sphere lower than Sakka ?

Was there more than one Mara ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Overlord and Mara

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:40 am Why do you say formless gods karma led them to rebirth as Brahma (form sphere) ?
I meant that the kamma of their jhānic development as human yogis led them to be reborn with four khandhas, but in the Vehapphala heaven where most gods have five khandhas. This can happen if someone develops and masters the rūpasamāpattis and then goes on to attain (but not to master) the arūpasamāpattis. The kamma of merely attaining the arūpasamāpattis gets him a rebirth with a four-khandha body, but his non-mastery of them means he doesn't get to inhabit a formless heaven.
asahi wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:40 amSo if Pajapati were to occupied the second seat below Sakka does that means his residing sphere lower than Sakka ?
He's in the same heaven as Sakka, but Sakka's the boss.
asahi wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:40 am Was there more than one Mara ?
The word can be both a proper noun, meaning Māra the Malign, and a common noun, meaning the members of Māra's host.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
asahi
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Re: Overlord and Mara

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:37 pm ....
Thanks bhante
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