Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

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dreicht
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Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by dreicht »

Can anybody recommend any deep discussions of the 5 khandas? Preferably ones which describe their phenomenology & clearly and preferably in cognitive terms delineate each from one another. I'm so used to using the term "consciousness" as a blanket term for my thoughts, feelings, etc. that I have a hard time understanding discussions of the 5 khandas which don't provide examples to help distinguish each from the other.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by Ceisiwr »

dreicht wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:25 pm Can anybody recommend any deep discussions of the 5 khandas? Preferably ones which describe their phenomenology & clearly and preferably in cognitive terms delineate each from one another. I'm so used to using the term "consciousness" as a blanket term for my thoughts, feelings, etc. that I have a hard time understanding discussions of the 5 khandas which don't provide examples to help distinguish each from the other.
Sure. I would recommend the appropriate sections of the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
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DooDoot
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by DooDoot »

dreicht wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:25 pm Can anybody recommend any deep discussions of the 5 khandas? Preferably ones which describe their phenomenology & clearly and preferably in cognitive terms delineate each from one another. I'm so used to using the term "consciousness" as a blanket term for my thoughts, feelings, etc. that I have a hard time understanding discussions of the 5 khandas which don't provide examples to help distinguish each from the other.
You should disregard your non-Buddhist ideas; particularly words such as phenomenology, cognitive, etc . The suttas clearly define the 5 khandas:
And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The six classes of consciousness should be understood. ’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ This is the third set of six.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them?"

"Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form (physical) aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the formations aggregate.

Mind-and-body (nama-rupa) is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

SN 22.82
"And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted, thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.

"And why do you call it 'feeling'? Because it feels, thus it is called 'feeling.' What does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Because it feels, it is called feeling.

"And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception.

"And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications.

"And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.

And what is the water element? The water element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior water element? Anything that’s water, watery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine, or anything else that’s water, watery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior water element. The interior water element and the exterior water element are just the water element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the water element, detaching the mind from the water element.

And what is the fire element? The fire element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior fire element? Anything that’s fire, fiery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: that which warms, that which ages, that which heats you up when feverish, that which properly digests food and drink, or anything else that’s fire, fiery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior fire element. The interior fire element and the exterior fire element are just the fire element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the fire element, detaching the mind from the fire element.

And what is the air element? The air element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior air element? Anything that’s wind, windy, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: winds that go up or down, winds in the belly or the bowels, winds that flow through the limbs, in-breaths and out-breaths, or anything else that’s air, airy, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior air element. The interior air element and the exterior air element are just the air element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the air element, detaching the mind from the air element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate. Whatever kind of feeling there is … this is called the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception there is … this is called the perception aggregate. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … these are called the volitional formations aggregate. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of feeling there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the feeling aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of perception there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the perception aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … that are tainted, that can be clung to: these are called the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates subject to clinging.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/bodhi
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2600htz
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

The buddha gave a pretty clear definition of each aggregate, so we can get a decent understanding of what this are in a couple of minutes. I wont say the 5 aggregates are not a deep teaching, but the real depth comes from the relationship between this aggregates and dhamma concepts, like 4 noble truths, dependent origination and the 3 marks. Also how this relate to the meditation.

Regards.
un8-
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by un8- »

dreicht wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:25 pm Can anybody recommend any deep discussions of the 5 khandas? Preferably ones which describe their phenomenology & clearly and preferably in cognitive terms delineate each from one another. I'm so used to using the term "consciousness" as a blanket term for my thoughts, feelings, etc. that I have a hard time understanding discussions of the 5 khandas which don't provide examples to help distinguish each from the other.
From a phenomenological and first person perspective, when you see or think something (like seeing pizza or imagining pizza), that's the sixfold sense media making contact, which covers the aggregates form, consciousness, and perception. When you have an unpleasant or pleasant feeling as a result of that contact, thats the feeling aggregate. When you intend or determine to do something about that feeling, that's the sankhara aggregate.

If your intention involves craving (delighting or aversion) in regards to that feeling, then clinging, becoming and suffering is born as a result of that craving.

If your intention doesn't involve craving, then you are not subject to suffering.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by Coëmgenu »

The idea that "cognitive" is not a "Buddhist idea," announced above, is absolutely ridiculous.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Ontheway
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by Ontheway »

A few suggestions:

1) Khandha Vagga from Samyutta Nikaya (for Suttanta styled explanation)

2) Panna bhumi niddesa chapter on 5 aggregates from Visuddhimagga (for both Abhidhamma & Suttanta styled complete explanation)

3) Unravelling the Mysteries of Mind and Body through Abhidhamma by Sayalay Susila (for Abhidhamma styled explanation)

4) Early Buddhist Teachings chapter 3 by Y. Karunadasa (Not direct explanation, but it is an approach from Early Buddhism Texts perspective)
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
pegembara
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Re: Recommendations for deep and cognitive understanding of 5 khandas

Post by pegembara »

This is a short read which hopefully helps.

The 5 Illusionists
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Bhan ... onists.pdf
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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