Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rumpledime
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Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

Below I am quoting Bikkhu Bodhi's lecture on Kamma and Rebirth. Beneath the quotes are my questions.

"When the body breaks up at death the succession of cittas doesn't draw to an end. There takes place one final thought moment called the death consciousness. This last citta signals the complete end of the life. Then following the death consciousness there occurs another citta, the first citta of the new life."

"In order for the six sense faculties to exist, the entire psycho-physical organism is required, that is nāmarūpa. The sense faculties do not operate in disembodied space but as parts of a total organism. Thus, on account of craving, the mind holds on to this presently existing organism as long as it lives. Why? So it can have these six sense faculties.... When death comes this body ceases to provide a suitable basis for obtaining pleasure through the senses. ....When life in the body comes to end the senses become defunct. Craving causes the stream of mind to spring up again, grasping on to a fertilized egg...bringing the whole storage of accumulated impressions over with it into the new psycho-physical organism. Thus we see a new being has been conceived."

First, in the Devadūta sutta, who or what is being punished, and when is this occurring? If there are no six sense faculties left after death there is nothing to feel or understand what is happening. So what is being punished? And if there is a death citta and then a new life citta, when is this punishment occurring?

Second, what is the point of working toward a fortunate rebirth? The part of me which desires a fortunate rebirth is lost at death. I certainly will have no memory of this life unless I become an arahant and am lucky enough to have that particular power. But that is not a great motivator given its unlikelihood, so my goal can only be a fortunate rebirth. But what does that even mean?
bpallister
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by bpallister »

"The journey is the destination."
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cappuccino
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by cappuccino »

rumpledime wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 pm
I think of it like yesterday and today and tomorrow
Ontheway
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by Ontheway »

It is simple, to gain fortunate rebirth is crucial for well-being and able to gain opportunity to practice further.

One wouldn't have the opportunity to meet Dhamma or practice Dhamma, if he/she get reborn into woeful planes of existence such as Ghost realms, Hell realms, animal realms, or among human that devoid of opportunities to learn Dhamma (reborn among terrorist families, gang families, among families of different faith with strong wrong views, absolute poor families, mental deranged, etc.)
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
pegembara
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by pegembara »

Indeed. Better to work towards a better future in this life. Something that can be directly experienced in this very life.
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.

To reside in a suitable locality,[6] to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course[7] — this is the greatest blessing.

To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing.

To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation — this is the greatest blessing.

To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.

To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing.

To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.

To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.

Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing.

A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune,[16] from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated[17] — this is the greatest blessing.

Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."[18]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
TRobinson465
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Why would anyone not wanna do this? That is like saying, why work to make a better life for yourself? Or why work to improve your health? Working for a better rebirth is just as important as working for a better life in the here and now. Even if you improve your current life you will die and it will all be gone, so work for a good next life as well.

Granted there are some Ultimatist Buddhists, especially in the West and some on this forum, who revile merit-making and Buddhist practices common in Asian Buddhism that focus on simply improving your next life rather than making you disappear into no selfness. But I have never found these sorts of nirvana-in-this-lifetime or bust people to give any kind of coherent reason as to why you shouldn't care about a better rebirth. I find these people to be more or less on par with political factions who say "taxation is theft" and we should just have no gov at all. Makes for good propaganda but is pretty nonsensical when you hit it with reality.

Even when the Buddha admitted that arahants gain no additional benefit from dana, dana was still considered something you should do.
“But, Bhante, if both attain arahantship, would there still be some distinction or difference between them after they have attained arahantship?”

“In this case, Sumanā, I declare, there would be no difference between the liberation of one and the liberation of the other.”

“It’s astounding and amazing, Bhante! Truly, one has good reason to give alms and do meritorious deeds, since they will be helpful if one becomes a deva, again becomes a human being, or goes forth.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.31/en/bodhi
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by TRobinson465 »

rumpledime wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 pm
I certainly will have no memory of this life unless I become an arahant and am lucky enough to have that particular power.
Just because you dont remember it, doesnt mean it doesnt matter. I dont remember my parents feeding me as a baby but im glad it happened even though i dont remember it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
un8-
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by un8- »

rumpledime wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:48 pm ...
Forget about time, what matters is how do you feel right now? Are you happy? Are you content? Do you have obsessions? addictions? are the 5 hindrances present? strong feelings? strong thoughts?
You shouldn't chase after the past
or place expectations on the future.
What is past
is left behind.
The future
is as yet unreached.
Whatever quality is present
you clearly see right there
,
right there.
Not taken in,
unshaken,
that's how you develop the heart.
Ardently doing
what should be done today,
for — who knows? — tomorrow
death.
There is no bargaining
with Mortality & his mighty horde.

Whoever lives thus ardently,
relentlessly
both day & night,
has truly had an auspicious day:
so says the Peaceful Sage.
"And how, monks, does one chase after the past? One gets carried away with the delight of 'In the past I had such a form (body)'... 'In the past I had such a feeling'... 'In the past I had such a perception'... 'In the past I had such a thought-fabrication'... 'In the past I had such a consciousness.' This is called chasing after the past.
"And how does one place expectations on the future? One gets carried away with the delight of 'In the future I might have such a form (body)'... 'In the future I might have such a feeling'... 'In the future I might have such a perception'... 'In the future I might have such a thought-fabrication'... 'In the future I might have such a consciousness.' This is called placing expectations on the future.
"And how is one not taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones who has seen the noble ones, is versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is well-trained in the teachings of the noble ones, does not see form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

"He/she does not see feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.

"He/she does not see perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception.

"He/she does not see thought-fabrications as self, or self as possessing thought-fabrications, or thought-fabrications as in self, or self as in thought-fabrications.

"He/she does not see consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called not being taken in with regard to present qualities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
rumpledime
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 am Why would anyone not wanna do this? That is like saying, why work to make a better life for yourself? Or why work to improve your health? Working for a better rebirth is just as important as working for a better life in the here and now.
I certainly agree with these concepts. I know that following the path is making my current life better. That is not up for debate. For that reason working for a better rebirth is "just as important" as working for a better life.

However, one could imagine a situation when this is not so concrete. For example, should a man leave his family and become a monk to increase his chances of a better rebirth? In most cases the rebirth for householders is not the same as monks (for obvious reasons). One could live a great family life practicing the Dhamma and may even be "happier" than if he chose to become a monk and have a good rebirth. So why choose instead to work toward a more fortunate rebirth when I will never actually know my fate?
rumpledime
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:04 am Just because you dont remember it, doesnt mean it doesnt matter. I dont remember my parents feeding me as a baby but im glad it happened even though i dont remember it.
Agreed. Having or not having the memory was a weak point. I was just trying to find some connection between my current "self" and future "self." Truly there isn't one, so really my question stand the same.
rumpledime
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:14 am It is simple, to gain fortunate rebirth is crucial for well-being and able to gain opportunity to practice further.
Agreed, but why does that matter in my present life? This "me" won't know what happens to my stream of consciousness. It is the next container for my cittas that will experience these things. Why should I be concerned with that future person (or animal or deva)?
Ontheway
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by Ontheway »

rumpledime wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:35 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:14 am It is simple, to gain fortunate rebirth is crucial for well-being and able to gain opportunity to practice further.
Agreed, but why does that matter in my present life? This "me" won't know what happens to my stream of consciousness. It is the next container for my cittas that will experience these things. Why should I be concerned with that future person (or animal or deva)?
Because that future is also you ( though not the same 'you', there is nothing carry on except Kamma; and this should not be regarded as 'Self', 'Soul' or 'Essence'). Next time we may not be able to reborn as human if we don't practice five precepts or other meritorious deeds.

If you can attain Arahatship this life time, great.
But if you can't, you wouldn't want to be farm animals eg: chicken that end up in a slaughterhouse or a zebra that constantly fear for death in Africa next life. That's just too much sufferings...

Being a Deva wouldn't be good, if you end up in those Arupabrahmas, or Assannisatta Devas, or being a Deva under Mara's command.

To be a ghost is also wasted since they are just wandering on and on to be suffered...and certainly Hell is definitely not the place we should aspire for.

The Wheel of Samsara is full of traps and miseries, it is best to gain Nibbana. If can't, at least we need to strive for better future existence.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
TRobinson465
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by TRobinson465 »

rumpledime wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:24 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 am Why would anyone not wanna do this? That is like saying, why work to make a better life for yourself? Or why work to improve your health? Working for a better rebirth is just as important as working for a better life in the here and now.
I certainly agree with these concepts. I know that following the path is making my current life better. That is not up for debate. For that reason working for a better rebirth is "just as important" as working for a better life.

However, one could imagine a situation when this is not so concrete. For example, should a man leave his family and become a monk to increase his chances of a better rebirth? In most cases the rebirth for householders is not the same as monks (for obvious reasons). One could live a great family life practicing the Dhamma and may even be "happier" than if he chose to become a monk and have a good rebirth. So why choose instead to work toward a more fortunate rebirth when I will never actually know my fate?
Well. It seems you certainly believe in rebirth so that's a good start. But a good way to think about it is comparing it to life stages.

If you were a young freshman in highschool should you work to improve your high school life? Yes. Absolutely. Improving your highschool life is tangible and something you can easily see how to do and see the results of shortly. But you should also work to improve your life in the post Highschool era. That is what most wise highschoolers do. It is only the foolish highschoolers who focus solely on improving thier high school life with no regard for what comes after highschool, despite the fact that most of them probably do believe there is such thing as a life after highschool. Sure, you don't know exactly what will happen to you after highschool, and the steps you take to improve your post Highschool life are less predictable than the steps you take to improve your highschool life, and you don't even know for sure if you'll have a life after highschool (you could die b4 you graduate). But since you at least recognize you will most likely have a life after highschool and that all the work you put into improving your highschool life will no longer be relavent once you graduate high school. It's wise to take solid steps to have a better adult life once you graduate high school, as well as improving your life during highschool.

Just think of this, but change life stages to actual lives.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
rumpledime
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:14 am Because that future is also you
I experience the fruit of my Kamma only through the aggregates. When I become an arahant I am no longer conditioned. Up until that point everything I experience is conditioned and experienced by the aggregates. The aggregates fall away when die. Nothing of "me" remains after death, only my kamma, my stored up cittas remain. So in what way is this future self still me?
rumpledime
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Re: Why work toward a fortunate rebirth?

Post by rumpledime »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 am Just think of this, but change life stages to actual lives.
Yes, but this is all within the same stream of this current life. I can look back as an adult and be grateful for that effort in high school. No such thing happens in rebirth, because there is no "me." When I die everything that is "me" goes away and my stream moves on to a new lifeform. It feels as if all this work I'm doing is for the next lifeform. All this work is for a future being in many eons who may become an arahant. I'm not denying I reap the benefits in this life with meditation and sila, but I don't care about this life. I care about what happens at death and about enlightenment. How do I reconcile this? I am struggling right now.
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