Suffering - Is it skandhas or attachment to them?

[Ngawang Drolma.]

Is it the skandhas that cause us suffering, or the attachment to them?

Thanks

[EDIT: Topic title edited to provide greater clarity of the question at hand - Retro.]

[thecap]

Hi Drolma

Is this a catch question?

I'd say attachment causes suffering, but the aggregates condition the manifestation of it.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

Hi Cap

Haha, it's not a trick question. I've saved up all my stupid questions over the past couple of years for one special place on the Internet.

And it's this subforum!

[stuka]

According to the Buddha's teaching, it is attachment through ignorance that causes suffering.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

According to the Buddha's teaching, it is attachment through ignorance that causes suffering.

Yes, and if we expand that simple representation into the full twelve nidanas of the dependent origination process, attachment by way of craving and clinging is amongst the steps followed on that very road to suffering.

I believe the khandas in themselves do not constitute suffering, but there are different sides to the argument.

Metta,
Retro.

[thecap]

Hi Cap

Haha, it's not a trick question. I've saved up all my stupid questions over the past couple of years for one special place on the Internet.

And it's this subforum!

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

[Element]

Is it the skandhas that cause us suffering, or the attachment to them?

I say attachment is suffering and that an arahant is merely pure khandas.

However, regardless of what I say, it is imperative that each person, including Drolma, realise the truth of attachment for themselves.

[Element]

I've saved up all my stupid questions over the past couple of years for one special place on the Internet.

We have noticed but did not wish to bring it up.

[christopher:::]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

As a full time educator, i'd say that's wisdom worthy of a t-shirt, or bumper sticker slogan, at the very least.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

I've saved up all my stupid questions over the past couple of years for one special place on the Internet.

We have noticed but did not wish to bring it up.

Heehee

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Drolma, all,

I like the following sutta. It shows a "being", as viewed by a Buddha, as being a mode of existence, rather than what we conventionally understand a "being" to be in everyday parlance.

SN 23.2: Satta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

It also shows that it's not the aggregates themselves that are being, or suffering... it's the process of clinging to them which results in being. Hence the subtlety behind the term "clinging-aggregates" that we see in some suttas.

Where the above sutta looks at this matter from the perspective of the five aggregates, the following sutta looks at it similarly with reference to the six senses.

SN 35.191 - Kotthita Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

[Nicholas Weeks]

There is nothing outside the skandhas, so our attachment is part of the feeling or formations ones, I would guess.

On second thought, since craving or attachment is so pervasive, all the skandhas, save form, would be soaked with attachment - in we worldlings.

[kc2dpt]

Is it the skandhas that cause us suffering, or the attachment to them?

According to the first and second noble truths:
The skandhas are suffering.
Attachment is the cause of suffering.

[kc2dpt]

It also shows that it's not the aggregates themselves that are being, or suffering... it's the process of clinging to them which results in being.

On what basis are you equating "being" with "suffering" here?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Peter,

It also shows that it's not the aggregates themselves that are being, or suffering... it's the process of clinging to them which results in being.

On what basis are you equating "being" with "suffering" here?

By putting together a quote like ""Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'" (as above), and recognising that without craving (i.e. with the attainment of arahantship) there is no suffering.

Metta,
Retro.