The fetters to Stream Entry

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Wizard in the Forest
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The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

So far I'm able to identify what the fetters to Stream Entry are:

Sīlabbata-parāmāsa and Sīlabbata-upādāna

How does one define it, what are some examples?
What are the kinds of things that qualify as pointless rites and rituals so that I can be cautious to know what are pointless and how does one release them properly so as to be able to realize stream entry?

Vicikicchā: I have no doubt in the awakening of the Buddha, the Dhamma being the way and methods for someone to take to awaken, and that the Sangha are the best community to frequent to realize awakening, but does things like doubt in one's personal ability to awakening (like the fear or worry that one might be just a pada parama) count for the fetter of doubt?

sakkāya-diṭṭhi: I don't know what is the difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi or asmi māna. Is there an appreciable difference between belief in a making a self view and the conceit of using the self as a standard to compare others with and the belief in the self-view? Does it only include the belief of some sort of permanent essence as a self ?
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DooDoot
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by DooDoot »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 amSīlabbata-parāmāsa and Sīlabbata-upādāna
I think this also covers morality. Examples:

* I engage in non-killing therefore I am good. This creates self-clinging.

* I bow to my personal teacher. This creates self-clinging.

Better view:

* Non-killing leads to non-harming & non-remorse and assists samadhi.

* Bowing to element of benefaction.
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 amVicikicchā
I take this to mean doubt in the Path because the realisation has not occurred non-attachment/giving up self-clinging is the path to peace.
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 amsakkāya-diṭṭhi: I don't know what is the difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi or asmi māna. Is there an appreciable difference between belief in a making a self view and the conceit of using the self as a standard to compare others with and the belief in the self-view? Does it only include the belief of some sort of permanent essence as a self ?
Sakkāya seems to be a controversial word but according to the Pali language scholars it literally means "true body" or "real body" (rather than "own body"). However, according to the suttas (MN 44), it means to regard (samanupassati) the five aggregates as self. Therefore, sakkāya-diṭṭhi seems to mean to view an individual life as a lasting real true special self. Thus, alternately, to view an individual life as impermanent; as composed of elements & aggregates; as having this same nature as other individual lives; could be sufficient for ending sakkāya-diṭṭhi. In other words, experiencing a thorough absence of asmi māna may not be required to cut sakkāya-diṭṭhi.
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robertk
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by robertk »

Silabbata-upadana can be very gross or very subtle.
Visuddhimagga
CHAPTER XVII The Soil of Understanding (conclusion): Dependent Origination
261. 6. Which for which becomes condition means that here the exposition should
be known according to what kind of clinging is a condition for what [kind of
becoming]. But what is condition for what here? Any kind is a condition for any
kind. For the ordinary man is like a madman, and without considering “Is this
right or not?” and aspiring by means of any of the kinds of clinging to any of the
kinds of becoming, he performs any of the kinds of kamma. Therefore when
some say that the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming do not come
about through rules-and-vows clinging, that should not be accepted: what should
be accepted is that all kinds come about through all kind
s.
262. For example, someone thinks in accordance with hearsay or [false] view
that sense desires come to be fulfilled in the human world among the great
warrior (khattiya) families, etc., and in the six divine worlds of the sense sphere.
[574] Misled by listening to wrong doctrine, etc., and imagining that “by this
kamma sense desires will come to be fulfilled,” he performs for the purpose of
attaining them acts of bodily misconduct, etc., through sense-desire clinging.
By fulfilling such misconduct he is reborn in the states of loss. Or he performs
acts of bodily misconduct, etc., aspiring to sense desires visible here and now

and protecting those he has already acquired. By fulfilling such misconduct he
is reborn in the states of loss. The kamma that is the cause of rebirth there is
kamma-process becoming. The aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirthprocess
becoming. But percipient becoming and five-constituent becoming are
included in that, too….

267. Another [thinks] through rules-and-vows clinging, “This rite and ritual
leads him who perfects it to perfect bliss in becoming in the fortunate states of
the sense sphere or in the fine-material or immaterial kinds of becoming,” and
he performs kamma to achieve that. That kamma of his is kamma-process
becoming. The aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirth-process becoming.
But the percipient, etc., kinds of becoming are included in that, too. So rules-andvows
clinging
is a condition for all three, namely, the sense-desire, fine-material
and immaterial kinds of becoming with their analysis and their synthesis.
This is how the exposition should be known here according to “which is
condition for which.”
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Bunks
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by Bunks »

Ajahn Martin Piyadhammo disputes the fact that silabhatta-paramasa means "clinging to rites and rituals".

His interpretation is that it means keeping the five precepts (sila).
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by JohnK »

This may not be a helpful clarification, but these are not fetters to stream entry.
These are among the 10 fetters to samsara (they keep us fettered/chained to samsara), three of which are broken at steam entry. For me, having the imagery clear is helpful.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by cappuccino »

By accomplishment and perfection in the five faculties, one is an arahant. If the faculties are weaker, one is a non-returner; if they are still weaker, one is a once-returner, or a stream-winner, or a Dhamma-devotee, or a faith-devotee.

Thus, monks, through the difference of faculties, there is difference of result; and the difference of results makes for the difference of individuals.
— Sutta 13; translated by Nyanaponika Mahathera
JohnK
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by JohnK »

As I understand it, "the way" to stream entry is not to work directly on breaking the three fetters, but is through association with people of integrity, listening to the true dhamma, appropriate attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma.
The breaking of the three fetters is "the result" of following that way to stream entry.
Again, it is helpful to me to keep things like this clear.
My understanding is based on Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Into the Stream, which contains extensive sutta suport. https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/IntoT ... n0001.html
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
sentinel
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by sentinel »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am sakkāya-diṭṭhi: I don't know what is the difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi or asmi māna. Is there an appreciable difference between belief in a making a self view and the conceit of using the self as a standard to compare others with and the belief in the self-view? Does it only include the belief of some sort of permanent essence as a self ?
According to the ten fetters model , sakkaya ditthi is at the lower five list , asmi mana or conceit in the upper five list , the problem is , conceit meaning is to compare ie feeling superior than someone , feeling inferior or feeling equal to someone . Therefore , without the lower sakkaya ditthi (self view) which already abandoned , how do you give rise to superiority , inferiority and equality ?!
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JohnK
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by JohnK »

Soiled cloth simile can clarify fetters of "self-view" and "conceit:"
"Suppose, friends, a cloth has become soiled and stained, and its owners give it to laundryman. The laundryman would scour it evenly with cleaning salt, lye, or cow dung, and rinse it in clean water. Even though that cloth would become pure and clean, it would still retain a residual smell of cleaning salt, lye, or cow dung that had not yet vanished. The laundryman would then give it back to the owners. The owners would put it in a sweet-scented chest, and the residual smell...would vanish.
So too, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, still, in relation to the five aggregates subject to clinging, there lingers in him a residual conceit "I am," a desire "I am," an underlying tendency "I am" that has not yet been uprooted...As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit "I am"...that had not yet been uprooted -- this comes to be uprooted."
From SN 22:89 Bhikkhu Bodhi translation.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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robertk
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by robertk »

sentinel wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:53 am
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:01 am sakkāya-diṭṭhi: I don't know what is the difference between sakkāya-diṭṭhi or asmi māna. Is there an appreciable difference between belief in a making a self view and the conceit of using the self as a standard to compare others with and the belief in the self-view? Does it only include the belief of some sort of permanent essence as a self ?
According to the ten fetters model , sakkaya ditthi is at the lower five list , asmi mana or conceit in the upper five list , the problem is , conceit meaning is to compare ie feeling superior than someone , feeling inferior or feeling equal to someone . Therefore , without the lower sakkaya ditthi (self view) which already abandoned , how do you give rise to superiority , inferiority and equality ?!
Because conceit, mana, is a different reality to ditthi, wrongview. It might seem they are related but they are very different.
True, both arise in conjunction (sampayutta) with lobha, desire, attachment- but ditthi is a true misunderstanding of the nature of the world - such as believing there is a self somehow controlling this purely natural process of mind and matter. Wrong view is usually not arising as often as mana ..

Conceit, of course, can also be dangerous but it depends on the level of conceit. Is it omāna (inferiority conceit), or atimāna (superiority conceit) and to what degree.In fact I remember in one of the tikas it is noted that the sotapanna has given up some kinds of conceit - but still holds others. (maybe ven Dhammanado knows the text..?)
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Re: The fetters to Stream Entry

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

-Its not about every rite or ritual you can make, its the idea that rites or rituals lead to nibbana.

-Its not about every doubt you can have, its doubt in the dhamma being the way to nibbana, and nibbana being a real thing.

-Its not about the complete destruction of every "i am" underlying tendency, its the destruction of the view that there is someone controlling the process.

This fetters are abandoned after the fruit of sotapanna, after the experience of seeing deeply dependent origination and the 4 noble truths.

Regards.
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