Sense restraint question

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
Post Reply
Ryan95227
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:29 am

Sense restraint question

Post by Ryan95227 »

For many years, I've struggled with the concept of sense restraint. In one situation, you can say that you can enjoy the pleasures of life such as watching movie, going out with your friend, playing some games, and enjoying some gourment. On other hand, you have to just completely cut off all sensual pleasures. Many people from this forum seemed to say to me that you should practice the "middle way" and just indulge in sensual pleasures lightly (not too extreme or not too light) while practicing the Dhamma. Unfortunately, I think the "middle way" applied here is wrong. I don't think I ever was able to clearly observe the way it is while playing games, eating food, or surfing the web mindlessly. It just unnecessarily added a new layer of challenge for me to overcome in order to practice the dhamma. I think when one's goal is nibanna and is restricted to lay lifestyle due to family situation one should practice sense restraint as much as possible and devote to noble 8 fold path 24/7. I'm not saying that you should cut out all ties to friendships or simply stop watching news. I'm saying you should always question your intention to partake in these things. When you are about to meet your friend you ask yourself "Will there be situation we will have to drink" "will there be situation where unwholesome activities might be exercised?" You simply say no if such situations present itself. Your entire life is based on how to act in a wholesome way while engaging in these sensual activities. If you are about to play your favorite video game, watching some show, mindlessly participate in some idle chatter on a forum, would you really partake in those activities if they led to unwholesomeness? I think not, so that means that you won't even partake in those. At bare mimium you would jut meet your good friend once in a while to catch up, exercise, and maybe eat out at a restaurant with your family. That would be true sense restraint in lay livelihood in my opinion. All your time would be consumed by meditating, studying the dhamma, and constantly observing the impermance that's happening.

This is pretty much what my idea of "sense restraint" is so far. If anyone can help point out what the wrong approach is here let me know!
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by Zom »

Sense restraint according to suttas is a particular clear-cut practice, a mental exercise, based on a full and constant mindfulness/awareness. And here you just talking about a level of engaging in sensuality which is a different thing, more of a way of life.
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by sunnat »

'just indulge in sensual pleasures lightly (not too extreme or not too light) while practicing the Dhamma. Unfortunately, I think the "middle way" applied here is wrong.' - you are correct. It's like saying a little bit of moderate killing, lying etc is ok. Wrong way to use middle way.
User avatar
lavantien
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 5:09 am
Location: HCM, Vietnam
Contact:

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by lavantien »

Ryan95227 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:01 am ...
That would be true sense restraint in lay livelihood in my opinion.
...
First, there is no concept of "sense restraint in lay life" found in the texts, but only "sense restraint", and the Buddha is crystal clear about how "sense restraint" is supposed to work.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.50 wrote: “Mendicants, when there is no sense restraint, one who lacks sense restraint has destroyed a vital condition for ethical conduct. When there is no ethical conduct, one who lacks ethics has destroyed a vital condition for right immersion. When there is no right immersion, one who lacks right immersion has destroyed a vital condition for true knowledge and vision. When there is no true knowledge and vision, one who lacks true knowledge and vision has destroyed a vital condition for disillusionment and dispassion. When there is no disillusionment and dispassion, one who lacks disillusionment and dispassion has destroyed a vital condition for knowledge and vision of freedom."
https://suttacentral.net/mn107 wrote: "When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors. When you see a sight with your eyes, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of sight, and achieve restraint over it. When you hear a sound with your ears … When you smell an odor with your nose … When you taste a flavor with your tongue … When you feel a touch with your body … When you know a thought with your mind, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of mind were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of mind, and achieve its restraint.’"
People can use all sorts of mental gymnastic to wriggling around or find loop holes but I think you should really read the suttas (I mean the whole sutta pitaka) for yourself and learn directly from there, and practice wholeheartedly - in accordance to your current situation - without the attitude of lowering the bar to justify your views and your desires.
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by pegembara »

People are generally driven by desires. Desire is the cause of suffering esp when directed towards the unwholesome.
The purpose of sense restraint is to control desire and to observe the effect of desire on the mind.
If one blindly follow one's desire there is simply no room to observe its effect and no way to break free from its bonds.
"And what is restraint? There is the case where a monk, seeing a form with the eye, is not obsessed with pleasing forms, is not repelled by unpleasing forms, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder.

"Hearing a sound with the ear...

"Smelling an aroma with the nose...

"Tasting a flavor with the tongue...

"Touching a tactile sensation with the body...

"Cognizing an idea with the intellect, he is not obsessed with pleasing ideas, is not repelled by unpleasing ideas, and remains with body-mindfulness established, with immeasurable awareness. He discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release, the discernment-release where all evil, unskillful mental qualities that have arisen utterly cease without remainder.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by Srilankaputra »

Mendicants, when there is no conscience and prudence, one who lacks conscience and prudence has destroyed a vital condition for sense restraint.

Hirottappe, bhikkhave, asati hirottappavipannassa hatūpaniso hoti indriyasaṃvaro;
https://suttacentral.net/an7.65/en/sujato

Suppose a person was to enter a thicket full of thorns. They’d have thorns in front and behind, to the left and right, below and above. So they’d go forward mindfully and come back mindfully, thinking, ‘May I not get any thorns!’

In the same way, whatever in the world seems nice and pleasant is called a thorn in the training of the noble one. When they understand what a thorn is, they should understand restraint and lack of restraint.

And how is someone unrestrained?

Take a mendicant who sees a sight with the eye. If it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted. And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.

They hear a sound … smell an odor … taste a flavor … feel a touch … know a thought with the mind. If it’s pleasant they hold on to it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and a limited heart. And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.

This is how someone is unrestrained.

And how is someone restrained?

Take a mendicant who sees a sight with the eye. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body established and a limitless heart. And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.

They hear a sound … smell an odor … taste a flavor … feel a touch … know a thought with the mind. If it’s pleasant they don’t hold on to it, and if it’s unpleasant they don’t dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body established and a limitless heart. And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over.

This is how someone is restrained.

Though that mendicant conducts themselves and lives in this way, every so often they might lose mindfulness, and bad, unskillful memories and thoughts prone to fetters arise. If this happens, their mindfulness is slow to come up, but they quickly give them up, get rid of, eliminate, and obliterate those thoughts.

Suppose there was an iron cauldron that had been heated all day, and a person let two or three drops of water fall onto it. The drops would be slow to fall, but they’d quickly dry up and evaporate.

In the same way, though that mendicant conducts themselves and lives in this way, every so often they might lose mindfulness, and bad, unskillful memories and thoughts prone to fetters arise. If this happens, their mindfulness is slow to come up, but they quickly give them up, get rid of, eliminate, and obliterate those thoughts.

This is how a mendicant has awakened to a way of conduct and a way of living such that, when they live in that way, bad, unskillful qualities of desire and grief don’t overwhelm them.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.244/en/sujato

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: Sense restraint question

Post by Laurens »

If, for instance, you love rich foods, but you know you should restrain yourself because you also want to be a good Buddhist. Trying to force yourself to stop is just throwing one part of yourself into battle with another. Who will win, the Buddhist in you, or the lover of rich food in you? It is dangerous to do battle in this way because you risk weakening and killing the Buddhist in you.

What you need is to use skilful means to see the food lover within for what it is. Rather than clenching your fists and telling yourself that you are never going to eat cake again. Develop an understanding that you are in a body that is made up of various parts, and elements, that this body deteriorates over time and will one day die. Understand that every action you take (every slice of cake you eat in this instance) has a consequence that reaches further than just having a momentary pleasure (in this instance health consequences). You might not stop eating cake right away, but working on understanding reality as it is will weaken the part of you that thinks its worth chasing the fleeting pleasure of having cake.

You need patience to develop sense restraint. Being forceful about it is like trying to capture and tame a wild animal by running at it screaming with a club in your hand. You have to move slowly, and patiently. And don't expect it all to happen at once. With the right practises (reflection on death is a really good one) slowly you will see the drawbacks of sense pleasure, and they will fall away on their own over time. Take small steps and work on developing right understanding, rather than just trying to smash your senses into compliance.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Post Reply