Question regarding kamma

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lavantien
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Question regarding kamma

Post by lavantien »

Hi everyone, at 38:15 in this video the venerable said if we stand by watching someone being torture and not doing anything that is always an unskillful course of action ..., but in the 'Simile of the Saw' sutta - as I understood - the Buddha seems to advice otherwise, please explain this doubtful matter to me.
https://suttacentral.net/mn21 wrote: ...

“Phagguna, are you not a gentleman who has gone forth from the lay life to homelessness?”

“Yes, sir.”

“As such, it’s not appropriate for you to mix so closely with the nuns. So if anyone criticizes those nuns in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

So even if someone strikes those nuns with fists, stones, rods, and swords in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

So if anyone criticizes you in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

...

there are these five ways in which others might criticize you. Their speech may be timely or untimely, true or false, gentle or harsh, beneficial or harmful, from a heart of love or from secret hate. When others criticize you, they may do so in any of these ways. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart like a catskin bag to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

If you frequently reflect on this advice—the simile of the saw—do you see any criticism, large or small, that you could not endure?”

“No, sir.”

...
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
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confusedlayman
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Re: Question regarding kamma

Post by confusedlayman »

lavantien wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:06 pm Hi everyone, at 38:15 in this video the venerable said if we stand by watching someone being torture and not doing anything that is always an unskillful course of action ..., but in the 'Simile of the Saw' sutta - as I understood - the Buddha seems to advice otherwise, please explain this doubtful matter to me.
https://suttacentral.net/mn21 wrote: ...

“Phagguna, are you not a gentleman who has gone forth from the lay life to homelessness?”

“Yes, sir.”

“As such, it’s not appropriate for you to mix so closely with the nuns. So if anyone criticizes those nuns in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

So even if someone strikes those nuns with fists, stones, rods, and swords in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

So if anyone criticizes you in your presence, you should give up any desires or thoughts of the lay life. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be unaffected. I will blurt out no bad words. I will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate.’ That’s how you should train.

...

there are these five ways in which others might criticize you. Their speech may be timely or untimely, true or false, gentle or harsh, beneficial or harmful, from a heart of love or from secret hate. When others criticize you, they may do so in any of these ways. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart like a catskin bag to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will remain unaffected. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of compassion, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.

If you frequently reflect on this advice—the simile of the saw—do you see any criticism, large or small, that you could not endure?”

“No, sir.”

...
I can see many people dying in many parts of world in disease or war or etc.. but i cant help all of them even if im aware.. its not unskillful.
dont think
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Sam Vara
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Re: Question regarding kamma

Post by Sam Vara »

lavantien wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:06 pm Hi everyone, at 38:15 in this video the venerable said if we stand by watching someone being torture and not doing anything that is always an unskillful course of action ..., but in the 'Simile of the Saw' sutta - as I understood - the Buddha seems to advice otherwise, please explain this doubtful matter to me.
Can you say why you think that the two pieces of advice are at odds? I might be misunderstanding you here, but I would have thought that if we see someone being tortured, we ought to intervene; if we ourselves are being tortured, we ought to escape from it and end the torture if we possibly can. The sutta gives advice on not giving in to unhelpful emotions, and maintaining our equanimity. This is of course a counsel of perfection - very hard to do - but seems to apply to both helping others escape from torture, and enduring what we have to endure.
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lavantien
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Re: Question regarding kamma

Post by lavantien »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:33 pm I can see many people dying in many parts of world in disease or war or etc.. but i cant help all of them even if im aware.. its not unskillful.
This is my impression from reading the said sutta too.
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm Can you say why you think that the two pieces of advice are at odds? I might be misunderstanding you here, but I would have thought that if we see someone being tortured, we ought to intervene; if we ourselves are being tortured, we ought to escape from it and end the torture if we possibly can. The sutta gives advice on not giving in to unhelpful emotions, and maintaining our equanimity. This is of course a counsel of perfection - very hard to do - but seems to apply to both helping others escape from torture, and enduring what we have to endure.
Thanks, your way of explaining connect the dots for me, and I accidentally misrepresented the venerable, he also said "... if it is in our ability to help ...".
"Then the Teacher, being sympathetic, and having compassion for the whole world,
said to me, “Come, monk!” That was my ordination.
Staying alone in the wilderness, meditating tirelessly,
I have completed what the Teacher taught, just as the victor advised me.

In the first watch of the night, I recollected my past lives.
In the middle watch of the night, I purified my clairvoyance.
In the last watch of the night, I shattered the mass of darkness."
- KN Thag 12.2
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