devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

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bodhifollower
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by bodhifollower »

I'd say they still visit, I've heard many stories from other people. I don't have any supernormal powers so I can't see these beings myself. They could be all around us but we don't see them. You'd need the heavenly eye element. It says in the samyutta nikaya that the weather is caused by devas, so there is that to think about. It also says in the suttas that the human world stinks to them very badly. And coming back here is like a man who was living in a cess pool, got free, then decided to return to the cess pool. You'd never want to come back.

But besides all that, like some else said, how do you know they're don't? You can't see them, maybe you don't live a highly virtuous life, maybe you don't practice enough, maybe you haven't tried contacting them enough. How hard have you actually tried to verify their existence? Try enough and one day you will surely know. Then you won't need to ask anybody if they're real or not.
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DooDoot
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by DooDoot »

bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:08 am It says in the samyutta nikaya that the weather is caused by devas, so there is that to think about.
In Brahmanism, some devas are "beings" and other devas merely refer to natural or physical potencies. In other words, it is possible is it you that is anthropomorphizing the samyutta nikaya verse above.
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zerotime
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by zerotime »

bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:08 am But besides all that, like some else said, how do you know they're don't? You can't see them, maybe you don't live a highly virtuous life
a relation with spiritual progress is clear inside the Suttas although also the texts shows different types of beings. According History, sometimes these sightings had that relation and were more openly manifest, as we read in one of the Ashoka pillars:

4 - In the past, for many hundreds of years, killing or harming living beings and improper behavior towards relatives, and improper behavior towards Brahmans and ascetics has increased.[7] But now due to Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's Dhamma practice, the sound of the drum has been replaced by the sound of the Dhamma.[8] The sighting of heavenly cars, auspicious elephants, bodies of fire and other divine sightings has not happened for many hundreds of years. But now because Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi promotes restraint in the killing and harming of living beings, proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders, such sightings have increased.[9]


https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html

that must be a common experience at that time when it had to be carved for all people in one of those pillars

Although today the situation is different even when some few people can report similar sightings. Besides the giant accumulation of lies in this madhouse there is also technology so who knows.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by bodhifollower »

zerotime wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:48 am
bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:08 am But besides all that, like some else said, how do you know they're don't? You can't see them, maybe you don't live a highly virtuous life
a relation with spiritual progress is clear inside the Suttas although also the texts shows different types of beings. According History, sometimes these sightings had that relation and were more openly manifest, as we read in one of the Ashoka pillars:

4 - In the past, for many hundreds of years, killing or harming living beings and improper behavior towards relatives, and improper behavior towards Brahmans and ascetics has increased.[7] But now due to Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's Dhamma practice, the sound of the drum has been replaced by the sound of the Dhamma.[8] The sighting of heavenly cars, auspicious elephants, bodies of fire and other divine sightings has not happened for many hundreds of years. But now because Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi promotes restraint in the killing and harming of living beings, proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders, such sightings have increased.[9]


https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html

that must be a common experience at that time when it had to be carved for all people in one of those pillars

Although today the situation is different even when some few people can report similar sightings. Besides the giant accumulation of lies in this madhouse there is also technology so who knows.
Exactly what I meant, now the drum of war replaces the drum of dhamma. People are not as virtuous they used to be. And as the Buddha said, the smell of virtue reaches the heaven realms. What about disvirtue? It must stink, so we must be getting stinkier as time moves on. I believe that once humanity becomes virtuous again, when Buddha Metteyya walks the Earth, devas will walk besides humans. We live in one of the most unvirtuous times in humanities history. It's only going to get worse before it reaches the worst point, then slowly go up until Metteyya comes to Earth. So with that in mind, devas no not want to come here, humanity has gotten so horrible they don't want to associate with our defilements.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

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bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:50 pm
zerotime wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:48 am
bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:08 am But besides all that, like some else said, how do you know they're don't? You can't see them, maybe you don't live a highly virtuous life
a relation with spiritual progress is clear inside the Suttas although also the texts shows different types of beings. According History, sometimes these sightings had that relation and were more openly manifest, as we read in one of the Ashoka pillars:

4 - In the past, for many hundreds of years, killing or harming living beings and improper behavior towards relatives, and improper behavior towards Brahmans and ascetics has increased.[7] But now due to Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's Dhamma practice, the sound of the drum has been replaced by the sound of the Dhamma.[8] The sighting of heavenly cars, auspicious elephants, bodies of fire and other divine sightings has not happened for many hundreds of years. But now because Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi promotes restraint in the killing and harming of living beings, proper behavior towards relatives, Brahmans and ascetics, and respect for mother, father and elders, such sightings have increased.[9]


https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html

that must be a common experience at that time when it had to be carved for all people in one of those pillars

Although today the situation is different even when some few people can report similar sightings. Besides the giant accumulation of lies in this madhouse there is also technology so who knows.
Exactly what I meant, now the drum of war replaces the drum of dhamma. People are not as virtuous they used to be. And as the Buddha said, the smell of virtue reaches the heaven realms. What about disvirtue? It must stink, so we must be getting stinkier as time moves on. I believe that once humanity becomes virtuous again, when Buddha Metteyya walks the Earth, devas will walk besides humans. We live in one of the most unvirtuous times in humanities history. It's only going to get worse before it reaches the worst point, then slowly go up until Metteyya comes to Earth. So with that in mind, devas no not want to come here, humanity has gotten so horrible they don't want to associate with our defilements.
imagine if some people go to deva world in meditation to talk to them.. what would they think of us? we will be ashamed if we are kicked out of their realm.. if we dont have compassion we might feel discriminated...
dont think
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

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confusedlayman wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:29 am imagine if some people go to deva world in meditation to talk to them.. what would they think of us? we will be ashamed if we are kicked out of their realm.. if we dont have compassion we might feel discriminated...
They are not a collection. They are all individual people who are too preoccupied with their own lives. Some have good sila and some have bad sila, don't think they are all good because this is wrong. They live for so long, if they turn a wrong course and keep going in the direction for hundreds or thousands of years, they can become very immoral, and with strength far greater than humans. I think only a few are buddhists, and it would require sacrificing a lot I believe to become a deva Buddhist. Most devas would want to keep their nice lives. Also, it is not their realm, no one owns any realm, they are created from the illusion created by the avijja citta. Humans live with animals, I don't treat animals poorly or make them feel ashamed. I am kind to them and know that they suffer too. They are better than a lot of humans.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by bodhifollower »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:25 am
bodhifollower wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:08 am It says in the samyutta nikaya that the weather is caused by devas, so there is that to think about.
In Brahmanism, some devas are "beings" and other devas merely refer to natural or physical potencies. In other words, it is possible is it you that is anthropomorphizing the samyutta nikaya verse above.
No it is not possible, how do you anthropomorphize the word "deva"? I don't think you've read the samyutta nikaya. These are words claimed to be from the Buddha, he says wind devas, rain devas, cloud devas, etc. He never says it's anthropomorphized.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by DooDoot »

bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:53 amNo it is not possible, how do you anthropomorphize the word "deva"? I don't think you've read the samyutta nikaya. These are words claimed to be from the Buddha, he says wind devas, rain devas, cloud devas, etc. He never says it's anthropomorphized.
He never says it's not anthropomorphized. In the Vedas, the various use of the word "deva" is very clear. Regards :smile:
The list of Vedic Devas somewhat varies across the manuscripts found in different parts of South Asia, particularly in terms of guides (Aswins) and personified Devas. One list based on Book 2 of Aitereya Brahmana is:

* Devas personified: Indra (Śakra), Varuṇa, Mitra, Aryaman, Bhaga, Aṃśa, Vidhatr (Brahma), Tvāṣṭṛ, Pūṣan, Vivasvat, Savitṛ (Dhatr), Vishnu.

* Devas as abstractions or inner principles: Ānanda (bliss, inner contentment), Vijñāna (knowledge), Manas (mind, thought), Prāṇa (life-force), Vāc (speech), Ātmā (soul, self within each person), and five manifestations of Rudra/Shiva – Īśāna, Tatpuruṣa, Aghora, Vāmadeva, Sadyojāta

* Devas as forces or principles of nature – Pṛthivī (earth), Agni (fire), Antarikṣa (atmosphere, space), Jal (water), Vāyu (wind), Dyauṣ (sky), Sūrya (sun), Nakṣatra (stars), Soma (moon)

* Devas as guide or creative energy – Vasatkara, Prajāpati

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by bodhifollower »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:07 am
bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:53 amNo it is not possible, how do you anthropomorphize the word "deva"? I don't think you've read the samyutta nikaya. These are words claimed to be from the Buddha, he says wind devas, rain devas, cloud devas, etc. He never says it's anthropomorphized.
He never says it's not anthropomorphized. In the Vedas, the various use of the word "deva" is very clear. Regards :smile:
The list of Vedic Devas somewhat varies across the manuscripts found in different parts of South Asia, particularly in terms of guides (Aswins) and personified Devas. One list based on Book 2 of Aitereya Brahmana is:

* Devas personified: Indra (Śakra), Varuṇa, Mitra, Aryaman, Bhaga, Aṃśa, Vidhatr (Brahma), Tvāṣṭṛ, Pūṣan, Vivasvat, Savitṛ (Dhatr), Vishnu.

* Devas as abstractions or inner principles: Ānanda (bliss, inner contentment), Vijñāna (knowledge), Manas (mind, thought), Prāṇa (life-force), Vāc (speech), Ātmā (soul, self within each person), and five manifestations of Rudra/Shiva – Īśāna, Tatpuruṣa, Aghora, Vāmadeva, Sadyojāta

* Devas as forces or principles of nature – Pṛthivī (earth), Agni (fire), Antarikṣa (atmosphere, space), Jal (water), Vāyu (wind), Dyauṣ (sky), Sūrya (sun), Nakṣatra (stars), Soma (moon)

* Devas as guide or creative energy – Vasatkara, Prajāpati

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism)
No one needs to say something isn't for it to not be so. This is like guilty without proof in a court.
That is the Vedas. Not Buddhism. I know nothing of the Vedas, other than it's not the words of Gotama Buddha.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by DooDoot »

bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:40 pm That is the Vedas. Not Buddhism
Funny post. You think the Buddha would have taught about "devas" if he did not live in Brahmanistic culture? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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bodhifollower
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by bodhifollower »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:46 am
bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:40 pm That is the Vedas. Not Buddhism
Funny post. You think the Buddha would have taught about "devas" if he did not live in Brahmanistic culture? :shrug:
No it's not funny. Believing the devas are not real as you do, is your wrong view. There are two reincarnations for one with wrong view, hell or animal.
Just get to upachara samadhi and you'll be able to see the devas for yourself if you're confused a bit.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by DooDoot »

bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 am Believing the devas are not real as you do, is your wrong view.
I never said all devas were not real. Take care with your speech. Thank you
bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 am There are two reincarnations
More hinduism :rofl:
bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 am... your wrong view... for one with wrong view, hell or animal.
:rules: predictions or threats of kammic retribution
bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 amJust get to upachara samadhi and you'll be able to see the devas for yourself
Nonsense. Upachara samadhi can't see devas. The above sounds like wrong view.
bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 amif you're confused a bit.
Since my mind is not confused, another poster must have wrong view. :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by confusedlayman »

bodhifollower wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:46 am
bodhifollower wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:40 pm That is the Vedas. Not Buddhism
Funny post. You think the Buddha would have taught about "devas" if he did not live in Brahmanistic culture? :shrug:
No it's not funny. Believing the devas are not real as you do, is your wrong view. There are two reincarnations for one with wrong view, hell or animal.
Just get to upachara samadhi and you'll be able to see the devas for yourself if you're confused a bit.
Its impossible to see devas after emrging from second jhana, how can at upacara samadhi?
dont think
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?
Why not now? Perhaps they leave people alone to let them fester in their own arrogance and mind pollution. i.e people are unable to distinguish the real from the false. They still do but perhaps not as often or even as direct and even if people have encountered one they won't be able to recognise them.
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Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ordinaryperson wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:22 am
Re: devas visited indian people ancient time but not now?
Why not now? Perhaps they leave people alone to let them fester in their own arrogance and mind pollution. i.e people are unable to distinguish the real from the false. They still do but perhaps not as often or even as direct and even if people have encountered one they won't be able to recognise them.
is devas taking human form u talking about? I think devas are bigger than humans
dont think
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