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Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm
by confusedlayman
I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:12 pm
by santa100
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?
Because it'd take A LOT more than just seeing all experience coming/going to qualify one as an Anagami. An Anagami is one who's completely cut off the lower 5 Fetters, 2 of which are sensual lust and ill-will. Needless to say, absolutely not an easy task!

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:17 pm
by rhinoceroshorn
Some time ago I found out an interesting article about Nirodha Samāpatti which exposes the view of some Buddhist schools on this matter.

I barely remember the discussion in this article, but at the time I read it I tended to agree a lot with Yogācāra's explanation with Alaya Vijñana.

Image

Read here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1398596?re ... b_contents

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:00 am
by SarathW
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?
Because due to five aggregate of clinging.
When you come out of Nirodha Samapatti, you become an Arahant as far as I know.
The Anagami has the clinging only to the perception and feeling.
So when he come out he understand even the perception and feeling are Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:44 am
by pegembara
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?
Desire and aversion are still present, are they not? If the mind is still moved by experiences, clinging is clearly still present. Yes, the pleasure from eating ice cream is temporary but the craving is there nevertheless.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
by confusedlayman
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?
Desire and aversion are still present, are they not? If the mind is still moved by experiences, clinging is clearly still present. Yes, the pleasure from eating ice cream is temporary but the craving is there nevertheless.
yes, but defilements go after seeing that experience come to end when its born.. so process of seeing is same?

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:12 am
by SteRo
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am yes, but defilements go after seeing that experience come to end when its born.. so process of seeing is same?
There seems to be a lack of awareness of momentary spontaneous experience which is unaffected by conceptual analysis.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:17 pm
by confusedlayman
SteRo wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:12 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am yes, but defilements go after seeing that experience come to end when its born.. so process of seeing is same?
There seems to be a lack of awareness of momentary spontaneous experience which is unaffected by conceptual analysis.
yes.. that is what im looking for

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:38 pm
by rightviewftw
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:17 pm Some time ago I found out an interesting article about Nirodha Samāpatti which exposes the view of some Buddhist schools on this matter.

I barely remember the discussion in this article, but at the time I read it I tended to agree a lot with Yogācāra's explanation with Alaya Vijñana.

Image

Read here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1398596?re ... b_contents
Id say rather than a state where all mental events come to a halt it is the principle of all mental events coming to a halt. There is the principle of persistence, principle of change, principle of cessation and principle of arising. Normally people are only discerning the change while the conditioned persists, it's arising is not discerned because cessation is not discerned, normally only the change while persisting is discerned.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:27 am
by pegembara
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:50 pm I am sorry to ask this stupid question but its has been burning inside me now,

when one attains nirodha and come back to normal state, when he reviews he know every experience come to an end and hence he wont cling again

but in deep sleep in night and wake in morning, then if we reflect and see all exp come to end .. why after waking up we dont attain anagami?
Desire and aversion are still present, are they not? If the mind is still moved by experiences, clinging is clearly still present. Yes, the pleasure from eating ice cream is temporary but the craving is there nevertheless.
yes, but defilements go after seeing that experience come to end when its born.. so process of seeing is same?
The problem is the clinging on to experiences. We don't really want the experience to end especially pleasant ones even though they may be transient. For some even unpleasant ones are better than no experience which is equivalent to "death". This is bhava tanha ("clinging to existence").

Excerpt from U Pandita's Book In This Very Life
Indescribable Bliss: A Sleeping Millionaire

Let us imagine that there is a multimillionaire or millionairesse
who has available to him or her all the imaginable sense
pleasures. One day this person is having a nice, sound sleep.
While he or she is sleeping, the chef has been at work, cooking
an array of delicious food and arranging it on the table.
Everything is quite in order in the full splendor of the
millionaire’s mansion.


Now the chef becomes impatient. The food is getting cold and
the chef wants the owner of the house to come down and eat.
Let us say that the chef sends the butler to wake up the
millionaire. What do you think? Will the millionaire leap joyfully
from bed and come down to eat, or does the butler run the risk
of being clobbered?

When this millionaire is in a deep, sound sleep, he or she is
blissfully oblivious to the surroundings. No matter how beautiful
the bedroom, he or she does not see it. No matter how beautiful
the music that is piped throughout the house, he or she is deaf
to it. Fine fragrance may waft through the air, but he or she is
oblivious to it. He or she is not eating, that is clear. And no
matter how comfortable and luxurious the bed may be, he or
she is completely unaware of the sensation of lying upon it.

You can see that there is a certain happiness in sound sleep
which is not connected with sensate objects. Anyone, rich or
poor, may wake up from sound sleep and feel wonderful. One
may gather, then, that some sort of happiness exists in that
sleep. Though it is difficult to describe, it cannot be denied. In
the same way, the noble ones who have touched fulfillment of
Dhamma know of a kind of happiness that can neither be
denied nor fully described, but which we know by deductive
general reasoning actually exists.

Supposing it were possible to have deep, sound sleep forever.
Would you want it? If one does not like the kind of happiness
that comes with sound sleep, it may be difficult to have a
preference for nibbāna. If one does not want the happiness of
nonexperience, one is still attached to the pleasure of the
senses. This attachment is due to craving. It is said that craving
actually is the root cause of sense objects.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:42 am
by confusedlayman
pegembara wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:27 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:07 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:44 am

Desire and aversion are still present, are they not? If the mind is still moved by experiences, clinging is clearly still present. Yes, the pleasure from eating ice cream is temporary but the craving is there nevertheless.
yes, but defilements go after seeing that experience come to end when its born.. so process of seeing is same?
The problem is the clinging on to experiences. We don't really want the experience to end especially pleasant ones even though they may be transient. For some even unpleasant ones are better than no experience which is equivalent to "death". This is bhava tanha ("clinging to existence").

Excerpt from U Pandita's Book In This Very Life
Indescribable Bliss: A Sleeping Millionaire

Let us imagine that there is a multimillionaire or millionairesse
who has available to him or her all the imaginable sense
pleasures. One day this person is having a nice, sound sleep.
While he or she is sleeping, the chef has been at work, cooking
an array of delicious food and arranging it on the table.
Everything is quite in order in the full splendor of the
millionaire’s mansion.


Now the chef becomes impatient. The food is getting cold and
the chef wants the owner of the house to come down and eat.
Let us say that the chef sends the butler to wake up the
millionaire. What do you think? Will the millionaire leap joyfully
from bed and come down to eat, or does the butler run the risk
of being clobbered?

When this millionaire is in a deep, sound sleep, he or she is
blissfully oblivious to the surroundings. No matter how beautiful
the bedroom, he or she does not see it. No matter how beautiful
the music that is piped throughout the house, he or she is deaf
to it. Fine fragrance may waft through the air, but he or she is
oblivious to it. He or she is not eating, that is clear. And no
matter how comfortable and luxurious the bed may be, he or
she is completely unaware of the sensation of lying upon it.

You can see that there is a certain happiness in sound sleep
which is not connected with sensate objects. Anyone, rich or
poor, may wake up from sound sleep and feel wonderful. One
may gather, then, that some sort of happiness exists in that
sleep. Though it is difficult to describe, it cannot be denied. In
the same way, the noble ones who have touched fulfillment of
Dhamma know of a kind of happiness that can neither be
denied nor fully described, but which we know by deductive
general reasoning actually exists.

Supposing it were possible to have deep, sound sleep forever.
Would you want it? If one does not like the kind of happiness
that comes with sound sleep, it may be difficult to have a
preference for nibbāna. If one does not want the happiness of
nonexperience, one is still attached to the pleasure of the
senses. This attachment is due to craving. It is said that craving
actually is the root cause of sense objects.
thanks i agree to it

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:13 pm
by 2600htz
Hi:

Because the experience of nirodha is not the same as the experience of going to sleep.
Also, the realization of "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation" comes after deep insight to dependent origination,
the mind cant sink that just thinking.

Regards.

Re: Deep sleep and anagami

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:59 pm
by Alino
Hello :anjali:

Because sleeping don't eliminate 5 hindrances.

Only contemplation with right wisdom born from samadhi (elimination of 5 hindrances) one can realise liberating insight into the nature of reality.