Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Mahabrahma wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:34 pm I agree with you, it is not the original Middle-Way intent and Teaching, but many Buddhists, even very, very Enlightened ones teach no-self because it is a prominent Expedient Means in Buddhism. You are right though, at it's core, it is not the original Teaching, the original Teaching is that we should abandon the fetters and aggrigates and end material life, entering into pure Spiritual Enlightenment.

confusedlayman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:17 am

Mahabrahma wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:34 pm I agree with you, it is not the original Middle-Way intent and Teaching, but many Buddhists, even very, very Enlightened ones teach no-self because it is a prominent Expedient Means in Buddhism. You are right though, at it's core, it is not the original Teaching, the original Teaching is that we should abandon the fetters and aggrigates and end material life, entering into pure Spiritual Enlightenment.

there is no one to enter anywhere...

Mahabrahma wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:24 am

confusedlayman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:17 am

Mahabrahma wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:34 pm I agree with you, it is not the original Middle-Way intent and Teaching, but many Buddhists, even very, very Enlightened ones teach no-self because it is a prominent Expedient Means in Buddhism. You are right though, at it's core, it is not the original Teaching, the original Teaching is that we should abandon the fetters and aggrigates and end material life, entering into pure Spiritual Enlightenment.

there is no one to enter anywhere...

The Buddha's not a no one, He's The Blessed One, right?!

confusedlayman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:41 am

Mahabrahma wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:24 am

confusedlayman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:17 am

there is no one to enter anywhere...

The Buddha's not a no one, He's The Blessed One, right?!

pin point and show

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, whatever contemplatives or brahmans who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. And on that occasion — the uposatha of the fifteenth, the night of a very full moon — he was sitting out in the open with the community of monks.

Ten characteristics of a Buddha

...

10. The Blessed One or fortunate one (Skt: bhagavat)[12]
The tenth epithet is sometimes listed as "The World Honored Enlightened One" (Skt. Buddha-Lokanatha) or "The Blessed Enlightened One" (Skt. Buddha-Bhagavan).[13]

(3) All those gathered, equally sorrowful in grief, asked Ananda, “O Ananda,
allow us to approach and see the World-Honored One, for it will not be possible
to be blessed by the appearance of the Buddha again in this world.” Ananda
thought, “When the World-Honored One was in this world, the number of women
who could approach him was limited. Therefore, it is now appropriate for them
to pay their respects to the World-Honored One.” Thus, he let not only many
nuns but also laywomen pay homage to the World-Honored One. They bowed in
tears and offered various incenses and flowers.

"that everything has the capacity for Buddhahood! Rocky Buddhas???"

• Words such as self or non-self vanish when people gain insight into the teachings of the Buddha.

"that rocks have consciousness"

"If these Sal trees could understand the teaching, they would be enlightened"

"If they could"

dependent co-arising (paṭicca samuppāda) is expressed in terms of processes — of events and actions — without reference to a framework containing those processes. 

• In other words, it doesn't mention the existence or non-existence of agents doing the actions, or of a framework in time and space in which these processes happen.

 
Thus it makes possible a way of understanding the causes of suffering and stress without reference to the existence or non-existence of an "I" or an "other" responsible for those events.
Instead, the events are viewed simply as events in the context of the process — a way of viewing that makes it possible to abandon clinging for any of these events, so as to bring suffering to an end. 

• Even the idea of an "I" or an "other" is seen simply as part of the process (under the factors of fabrication and the sub-factor of attention under "name" in name-and-form).

This is what makes possible the abandoning of any attachment to the conceit "I am," 

MrLearner wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:13 pm Hey,
I have a question about god realms, in buddhism that can be reached when you do good karma.

1. The god realms are full of hapiness, but my question is will gods eventually get bored of this continuous happiness even before there good karma finishes. Does this mean without letting go, too much happiness or sadness both lead to suffering? So can gods also be suffering due to too much happiness? Sorry if this is a stupid question and makes no sense.

2. Why can't gods meditate in god realms and achieve enlightenment there without becoming human to do so?

He attained His Expedient Enlightenment (that He yet already had from a past life)

• the earliest Mahayanists relied on the earliest suttas of the sutta pitaka.

• Gotama's awakening is something he had from a previous life? are we not discounting the enormous effort Gotama the renunciate, put into reaching the highest potential within man?

In the Buddha lands of the ten directions
there is only the Law of the one vehicle,
there are not two, there are not three,
except when the Buddha preaches so as an expedient means,
merely employing provisional names and terms
in order to conduct and guide living beings
and preach to them the Buddha wisdom.
The Buddhas appear in the world
solely for this one reason, which is true;
the other two are not the truth.
Never do they use a lesser vehicle
to save living beings and ferry them across.
The Buddha himself dwells in this Great Vehicle,
and adorned with the power of meditation and wisdom
that go with the Law he has attained,
he uses it to save living beings.
He himself testifies to the unsurpassed way,
the Great Vehicle, the Law in which all things are equal.
If I used a lesser vehicle
to convert even one person,
I would be guilty of stinginess and greed,
but such a thing would be impossible.
If a person will believe and take refuge in the Buddha,
the Thus Come One will never deceive him,
nor will he ever show greed or jealousy,
for he has rooted out evil from among the phenomena.
Therefore throughout the ten directions
the Buddha alone is without fear.
I adorn my body with the special characteristics
and shine my light upon the world.
I am honored by numberless multitudes
and for them I preach the emblem of the reality of things.
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.

At that time the World-Honored One, seeing that the bodhisattvas repeated their request three times and more, spoke to them, saying: "You must listen carefully and hear of the Thus Come One's secret and his transcendental powers. In all the worlds the heavenly and human beings and asuras all believe that the present Shakyamuni Buddha, after leaving the palace of the Shakyas, seated himself in the place of practice not far from the city of Gaya and there attained annuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But good men, it has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.

"Suppose a person were to take five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya thousand-million-fold worlds and grind them to dust. Then, moving eastward, each time he passes five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya worlds he drops a particle of dust. He continues eastward in this way until he has finished dropping all the particles. Good men, what is your opinion? Can the total number of all these worlds be imagined or calculated?"

The bodhisattva Maitreya and the others said to the Buddha: "World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable, boundless--one cannot calculate their number, nor does the mind have the power to encompass them. Even all the voice-hearers and pratyekabuddhas with their wisdom free of outflows could not imagine or understand how many there are. Although we abide in the stage of avivartika, we cannot comprehend such a matter. World-Honored One, these worlds are immeasurable and boundless."

At that time the Buddha said to the multitude of great bodhisattvas: "Good men, now I will state this to you clearly. Suppose all these worlds, whether they received a particle of dust or not, are once more reduced to dust. Let one particle represent one kalpa. The time that has passed since I attained Buddhahood surpasses this by a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, a million nayuta asamkhya kalpas.

"Ever since then I have been constantly in this saha world, preaching the Law, teaching and converting, and elsewhere I have led and benefited living beings in hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas and asamkhyas of lands.

"Good men, during that time I have spoken about the Buddha Burning Torch and others, and described how they entered nirvana. All this I employed as an expedient means to make distinctions.

"Good men, if there are living beings who come to me, I employ my Buddha eye to observe their faith and to see if their other faculties are keen or dull, and then depending upon how receptive they are to salvation, I appear in different places and preach to them under different names, and describe the length of time during which my teachings will be effective. Sometimes when I make my appearance I say that I am about to enter nirvana, and also employ different expedient means to preach the subtle and wonderful Law, thus causing living beings to awaken joyful minds.

"Good men, the Thus Come One observes how among living beings there are those who delight in a little Law, meager in virtue and heavy with defilement. For such persons I describe how in my youth I left my household and attained anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But in truth the time since I attained Buddhahood is extremely long, as I have told you. It is simply that I use this expedient means to teach and convert living beings and cause them to enter the Buddha way. That is why I speak in this manner.

"Good men, the scriptures expounded by the Thus Come One are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others: sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.

Why do I do this? The Thus Come One perceives the true aspect of the threefold world exactly as it is. There is no ebb or flow of birth and death, and there is no existing in this world and later entering extinction. It is neither substantial nor empty, neither consistent nor diverse. Nor is it what those who dwell in the threefold world perceive it to be. All such things the Thus Come One sees clearly and without error.

"Because living beings have different natures, different desires, different actions, and different ways of thinking and making distinctions, and because I want to enable them to put down good roots, I employ a variety of causes and conditions, similes, parables, and phrases and preach different doctrines. This, the Buddha's work, I have never for a moment neglected.

"Thus, since I attained Buddhahood, an extremely long period of time has passed. My life span is an immeasurable number of asamkhya kalpas, and during that time I have constantly abided here without ever entering extinction. Good men, originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed. Now, however, although in fact I do not actually enter extinction, I announce that I am going to adopt the course of extinction. This is an expedient means which the Thus Come One uses to teach and convert living beings.

"Why do I do this? Because if the Buddha remains in the world for a long time, those persons with shallow virtue will fail to plant good roots but, living in poverty and lowliness, will become attached to the five desires and be caught in the net of deluded thoughts and imaginings. If they see that the Thus Come One is constantly in the world and never enters extinction, they will grow arrogant and selfish, or become discouraged and neglectful. They will fail to realize how difficult it is to encounter the Buddha and will not approach him with a respectful and reverent mind.

"Therefore as an expedient means the Thus Come One says: 'Monks, you should know that it is a rare thing to live at a time when one of the Buddhas appears in the world.' Why does he do this? Because persons of shallow virtue may pass immeasurable hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of kalpas with some of them chancing to see a Buddha and others never seeing one at all. For this reason I say to them: 'Monks, the Thus Come One is hard to get to see.' When living beings hear these words, they are certain to realize how difficult it is to encounter the Buddha. In their minds they will harbor a longing and will thirst to gaze upon the Buddha, and then they will work to plant good roots. Therefore the Thus Come One, though in truth he does not enter extinction, speaks of passing into extinction.

"Good men, the Buddhas and Thus Come Ones all preach a Law such as this. They act in order to save all living beings, so what they do is true and not false.

‘Venerable Nāgasena, you Bhikkhus say that: “When the Blessed One walked along, the earth, unconscious though it is, filled up its deep places, and made its steep places plain.” And on the other hand you say that a splinter of rock grazed his foot. When that splinter was falling on his foot why did it not, then, turn aside? If it be true that the unconscious earth makes its deep places full and its steep places plain for him, then it must be untrue that the splinter of rock hurt his foot. But if the latter statement be true, then the first must be false. This too is a double-edged problem now put to you, and you have to solve it.’

-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Sixteen: The Life Span of the Tathagata

Pulsar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:09 am Mahabrahma wrote

-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Sixteen: The Life Span of the Tathagata

I am not an expert on Lotus Sutra. Besides our conversation is deviating from the main thrust of "Theravada for beginners"
It is morphing into "Theravada vs Mahayana". I am not sure whether this is the right place for that. Let a Moderator decide first.
With love

he is a proponent for Mahayana and Theravada to be seen as a single Buddhist Vehicle.

• the Four Noble truths and Dependent origination  is the bedrock.

as I have said. I understand there is no need for deviation,

but it was nice conversing with you.

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception,
disenchanted with fabrications,
disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

"Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives
all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them.
Which five? When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form' in the past' one is recollecting just form.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a feeling in the past,' one is recollecting just feeling. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such mental fabrications in the past,' one is recollecting just mental fabrications" Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a consciousness in in the past, one is recollecting just consciousness