Are gods bored and can they meditate?

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binocular
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by binocular »

Aww, this is so cute! The OP asks "Are gods bored and can they meditate?" and Mahabrahma replies!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Aloka
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Aloka »

binocular wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:45 pm Aww, this is so cute! The OP asks "Are gods bored and can they meditate?" and Mahabrahma replies!
:rofl:



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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

binocular wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:45 pm Aww, this is so cute! The OP asks "Are gods bored and can they meditate?" and Mahabrahma replies!
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
Pulsar
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Pulsar »

Mahabrahma wrote
If you refer to craving as simply desiring material things
Excuse me, i did not refer to craving simply like that, what made you think that? Pl tell me. I took it for granted that you understood the 4 Noble Truths as Theravadins do, craving in the context of Four Noble Truths mean craving for unwholesome items.
Mettha, generosity, unlike craving helps to stick to the the path as in MN 117 (The right way). Are you familiar with MN 117? 
Are we on the same page? You wrote
"I believe all Metta is an Emanation from the Primordial Buddha, and as such, all Love is a Buddha, and if one becomes that Love, they become a Buddha. Buddha is Love and only Love"
Now you are giving Buddha a "New Age" twist.
Be that as it may, if this is what your traditions tell you.
You are speaking about becoming a Buddha??? I have no position on this matter, that appears to be peculiar to your tradition.
You also implied
"fully recognize the Buddha as their Teacher to attain Buddhahood and be just like Him"
As far as i know Theravadins have more realistic aspirations. Perhaps there are rare exceptions. Generally the
  • aspiration is to destroy all defilments and become an Arahant
However you are ignorant of this matter since 'there are no Arahants in Mahayana' so how could you possibly aspire to what is absent in your tradition?
That would be impossible. You and I work towards different goals, Pulsar simply wants to stress this on a beginner's thread, one must not mislead anyone at the beginning of Theravada.
Metta!   :candle:
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

MN 117 is perfect. What Buddha means by Choosing the Right is that we should choose Spiritual life over material life. I accept the Four Noble Truths and Theravadins do, as it is a perfect way to accept them. The difference between Spiritual and material desires is that in Spiritual life we are working with our Transcendental senses, while in material life one acts on the material plane, with material attachments and desires that are unwholesome. The "Blowing out" that is Nirvana leads to a Spiritual state, not nothingness, as Buddha is not a being without senses.

The goal of Buddhism is to create Buddhas. That is the goal of Siddhartha, and it is the work of the Buddha to convert the Bodhisattvas.

With regards to your comment about Arahats in Mahayana Buddhism, read here (This is from the end of a book, entitled "The Teaching of Buddha, an excerpt, and a Theravada Scripture herein):
ANGUTTARA NIKAYA

(The Book of the Gradual Sayings)

Monks, there is one person whose birth into the world is for the wel-
fare of many, for the happiness of many: who is born out of compassion
for the world, for the profit, welfare and happiness of heavenly beings and
mankind. Who is that person? It is a Tathagata who is an Arahat, a fully
Enlightened One. This, monks, is that one person.

Monks, the manifestation of one person is hard to find in the world. Of
what person? Of a Tathagata who is an Arahat, a fully Enlightened One.
He is the one person.

Monks, hard to be found in the world is that one extraordinary person.
What person? A Tathagata who is an Arahat, a fully Enlightened One. He
is the one person.

Monks, the death of one person is to be regretted by all. Of what
person? Of a Tathagata who is an Arahat, a fully Enlightened One. He is
the one person.

Monks, there is one person born into the world who is incomparable
and unequalled. Who is that person? It is a Tathagata who is an Arahat, a
fully Enlightened One. He is the one person.

Monks, the manifestation of one person is the manifestation of a
mighty eye, a mighty light, a mighty radiance. Of what person? Of a
Tathagata who is an Arahat, a fully Enlightened One. He is the one
person. (Anguttara Nikaya I-13)
Now, although this is from a Pali Theravada Source, it calls a fully Enlightened one a certain type of Arahat. A fully Enlightened One is a Buddha. Buddhas are fully Enlightened Arahats, would they not be? When I first read this book, and read this part at the end, I understood they were talking about the Buddha Himself in praise.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:12 pm
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:45 pm Aww, this is so cute! The OP asks "Are gods bored and can they meditate?" and Mahabrahma replies!
This is interesting. The Brahmas though, are genuine servants of the Buddha in every way. To be creators and superintendents of their respective Universes they must uphold the Dharma and always serve the Buddha. There is no other way, there is no other way, there is no other way. When Guatama Buddha achieved His Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, it was Brahma among other Gods who first came to Him and begged Him to Teach the Dharma to others.

There was a Buddha named Great Universal Wisdom Excellence many eons of kalpas ago, and in the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha narrated His Enlightenment as well, here is a description, and it involves many Brahmas giving Him praise. They are naturally the Disciples of the Buddha:
"At that time the Brahma kings of five hundred ten thousand million lands, accompanied by their palaces, each king taking his outer robe and filling it with heavenly flowers, journeyed together to the western region to observe the signs there. They saw the Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Thus Come One in the place of practice, seated on a lion seat underneath a bodhi tree, with heavenly beings, dragon kings, gandharvas, kimnaras, mahoragas, human, and nonhuman beings surrounding him and paying reverence. And they saw the sixteen princes entreating the Buddha to turn the wheel of the Law.

"At once the Brahma kings touched their heads to the ground and bowed before the Buddha, circled around him a hundred thousand times, and took the heavenly flowers and scattered them over the Buddha. The flowers they scattered piled up like Mount Sumeru. They also offered them as alms to the Buddha's bodhi tree. This bodhi tree was ten yojanas in height. When they had finished offering the flowers, each one took his place and presented it to the Buddha, speaking these words: 'We hope you will bestow comfort and benefit on us. We beg you to accept and occupy these palaces that we present.'

"At that time the Brahma kings, in the presence of the Buddha, with a single mind and joined voices recited these verses of praise:

World-Honored One, vary rarely met with,
one whom it is difficult to encounter,
endowed with immeasurable blessings,
capable of saving everyone,
great teacher of heavenly and human beings,
you bestow pity and comfort on the world.
Living beings in the ten directions
all receive benefit everywhere.
In the five hundred ten thousand million lands
from which we come,
we have put aside the joy of deep meditation
in order to offer alms to the Buddha,
Because of our good fortune in previous existences
our palaces are very richly adorned.
Now we present them to the World-Honored One,
begging that he be kind enough to accept them.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Seven: The Parable of the Phantom City.

So as you can see. the Brahmas highly praise and accept the Buddha as their Spiritual Master, and not only that, they strive to be just like Him.
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by confusedlayman »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:55 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:12 pm
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:45 pm Aww, this is so cute! The OP asks "Are gods bored and can they meditate?" and Mahabrahma replies!
This is interesting. The Brahmas though, are genuine servants of the Buddha in every way. To be creators and superintendents of their respective Universes they must uphold the Dharma and always serve the Buddha. There is no other way, there is no other way, there is no other way. When Guatama Buddha achieved His Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, it was Brahma among other Gods who first came to Him and begged Him to Teach the Dharma to others.

There was a Buddha named Great Universal Wisdom Excellence many eons of kalpas ago, and in the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha narrated His Enlightenment as well, here is a description, and it involves many Brahmas giving Him praise. They are naturally the Disciples of the Buddha:
"At that time the Brahma kings of five hundred ten thousand million lands, accompanied by their palaces, each king taking his outer robe and filling it with heavenly flowers, journeyed together to the western region to observe the signs there. They saw the Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Thus Come One in the place of practice, seated on a lion seat underneath a bodhi tree, with heavenly beings, dragon kings, gandharvas, kimnaras, mahoragas, human, and nonhuman beings surrounding him and paying reverence. And they saw the sixteen princes entreating the Buddha to turn the wheel of the Law.

"At once the Brahma kings touched their heads to the ground and bowed before the Buddha, circled around him a hundred thousand times, and took the heavenly flowers and scattered them over the Buddha. The flowers they scattered piled up like Mount Sumeru. They also offered them as alms to the Buddha's bodhi tree. This bodhi tree was ten yojanas in height. When they had finished offering the flowers, each one took his place and presented it to the Buddha, speaking these words: 'We hope you will bestow comfort and benefit on us. We beg you to accept and occupy these palaces that we present.'

"At that time the Brahma kings, in the presence of the Buddha, with a single mind and joined voices recited these verses of praise:

World-Honored One, vary rarely met with,
one whom it is difficult to encounter,
endowed with immeasurable blessings,
capable of saving everyone,
great teacher of heavenly and human beings,
you bestow pity and comfort on the world.
Living beings in the ten directions
all receive benefit everywhere.
In the five hundred ten thousand million lands
from which we come,
we have put aside the joy of deep meditation
in order to offer alms to the Buddha,
Because of our good fortune in previous existences
our palaces are very richly adorned.
Now we present them to the World-Honored One,
begging that he be kind enough to accept them.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Seven: The Parable of the Phantom City.

So as you can see. the Brahmas highly praise and accept the Buddha as their Spiritual Master, and not only that, they strive to be just like Him.
I think u like brahma thats your name

Btw most of the higher brahmas are good laypeople or failed monk under buddhas dispension.

If a layman could get jhana in household life or monk who gained all attainments except arhantship are in brahma world so naturally when buddha arise they will come to greet or their disciples...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:08 am I think u like brahma thats your name

Btw most of the higher brahmas are good laypeople or failed monk under buddhas dispension.

If a layman could get jhana in household life or monk who gained all attainments except arhantship are in brahma world so naturally when buddha arise they will come to greet or their disciples...
Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood. However, in Buddhist canon Buddhas are often described as coming in the form of Brahmas, such as Avalokakitesvara in certain cases, but the Brahmas generally take the position of servant to the Buddha, and don't flaunt or taunt their own Enlightenment. In Buddhism, since Enlightenment is the goal, and the rising to higher planets is secondary, the goal of becoming a Brahma or an Indra is considered great, but a Buddha greater, although they are one in the same thing.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:56 am Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood.
This is not actually right AFAIK. In Buddhism, the Brahmas are not ex nihilo creators. They neither create the heavens, continents, hell, Sumeru, etc., nor do they create the beings in the world. Consider also, Bakabrahmā, or "Brahma the Fool," is not a Buddha. In fact, AFAIK there are no Brahmas that are Buddhas in the Buddha's scriptures, Mahāyāna or not. Avalokiteśvara can manifest an emanated Brahmā body like in the "Universal Door," a section of the Lotus Sūtra I think you are thinking of, but according to those sorts of passages in scriptures, he appears as whatever the situation dictates. Avalokiteśvara is an irreversible āryan bodhisattva on the pure bhūmis. When he appears as Brahmā, or a postman for instance, it does not mean that he is Brahmā or a postman. A Brahmā who was also a Buddha would be an exception to the norm.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by confusedlayman »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:56 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:08 am I think u like brahma thats your name

Btw most of the higher brahmas are good laypeople or failed monk under buddhas dispension.

If a layman could get jhana in household life or monk who gained all attainments except arhantship are in brahma world so naturally when buddha arise they will come to greet or their disciples...
Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood. However, in Buddhist canon Buddhas are often described as coming in the form of Brahmas, such as Avalokakitesvara in certain cases, but the Brahmas generally take the position of servant to the Buddha, and don't flaunt or taunt their own Enlightenment. In Buddhism, since Enlightenment is the goal, and the rising to higher planets is secondary, the goal of becoming a Brahma or an Indra is considered great, but a Buddha greater, although they are one in the same thing.
buddha can be human because here he can set wheel rolling easy
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Aloka
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Aloka »

mahabrahma wrote:Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood. However, in Buddhist canon Buddhas are often described as coming in the form of Brahmas, such as Avalokakitesvara in certain cases,

Source from the Pali suttas, please?



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Mahabrahma
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Well I am not going to argue this point, I have already stated my case and I know it to be true, but I fully respect your opinions and they are valid and very important. Don't give up on other points of view however, the fundamentals of Scripture certainly are very important and so are the Expedient Means we all present, I am glad you are thinking these points over. You don't wrong celestial Beings by sticking to what you learned in Scripture or anything like that, the system you have in your mind for what you believe is important, and they will always be there to help you, however, when you feel a factual conclusion understand you must feel it in full Buddhist Metta, and not based on any other factors. Truth must be presented in a Loving way, otherwise it is presented incorrectly. So when you come to the truth you will know certainly that you have, just like when you know you Love someone that you certainly and without a doubt Love them. And it is good and neccessary to Love everyone equally.
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Aloka wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:15 am
mahabrahma wrote:Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood. However, in Buddhist canon Buddhas are often described as coming in the form of Brahmas, such as Avalokakitesvara in certain cases,

Source from the Pali suttas, please?



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Here is the Lotus Sutra reference:
If they need a voice-hearer to be saved, immediately he becomes a voice-hearer and preaches the Law for them. If they need King Brahma to be saved, immediately he becomes King Brahma and preaches the Law for them.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Twenty-Five: The Universal Gate Of Bodhisattva Kanzeon.

I know you'd like another reference, but you can't expect to get all of your truth from the same source of Scriptures, however important may they be. Some things you have to figure out yourself, or trust others when they tell you the truth. The truth isn't even hidden from you in this case, nor from any Buddhist who has taken refuge in the Buddha, but as an Expedient Means I understand why people have doubts, or preach otherwise, contrary to what I have said for reasons I have already stated. We are here to glorify the Buddha, not worship Brahma unless that is what you want to do.
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Mahabrahma »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:07 am buddha can be human because here he can set wheel rolling easy
I believe despite the shortness of lifespans in Kali-Yuga, it is a lot tougher for Buddha down here for Himself. Certainly, it is easier for Him to set the Wheel of the Law in motion for our world when present in our world, but He is not only on our planet and not only in this Universe, He is in countless other places, some higher and some lower, and always converting the Bodhisattvas. No task is too difficult for the Buddha, but we must certainly respect His sacrifices of being down here with us. He has been in the Saha world for eons, He is truly a marvelous person and He deserves all the highest respects and so does anyone else who follows His path, because they are a reflection of Him, and it is certainly perfect to follow the Buddha, not wasting the opportunity we have been given.
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Aloka
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Re: Are gods bored and can they meditate?

Post by Aloka »

Mahabrahma wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:33 am
Aloka wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:15 am
mahabrahma wrote:Every single actual Brahma is a full Buddha. One doesn't create a Universe and maintain it for hundreds of trillions of years without attaining Buddhahood. However, in Buddhist canon Buddhas are often described as coming in the form of Brahmas, such as Avalokakitesvara in certain cases,

Source from the Pali suttas, please?



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Here is the Lotus Sutra reference:
If they need a voice-hearer to be saved, immediately he becomes a voice-hearer and preaches the Law for them. If they need King Brahma to be saved, immediately he becomes King Brahma and preaches the Law for them.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Twenty-Five: The Universal Gate Of Bodhisattva Kanzeon.

I know you'd like another reference, but you can't expect to get all of your truth from the same source of Scriptures, however important may they be. Some things you have to figure out yourself, or trust others when they tell you the truth. The truth isn't even hidden from you in this case, nor from any Buddhist who has taken refuge in the Buddha, but as an Expedient Means I understand why people have doubts, or preach otherwise, contrary to what I have said for reasons I have already stated. We are here to glorify the Buddha, not worship Brahma unless that is what you want to do.
Thank you for your concern. However, I studied and practiced Vajrayana extensively (with one-to-one help from Tibetan teachers) before eventually changing to Theravada Buddhism...and you are certainly not my teacher for any aspect of the Dhamma.

This is the "Theravada for Beginners" forum on a Theravada website and the Lotus Sutra is a Mahayana text. Please read the following:

"Is the Lotus Sutra Authentic?"

That the Lotus Sutra and other Mahayana Sutras were not spoken by the Buddha is unanimously supported by modern scholarship.
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/10/18 ... authentic/

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