No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

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Inedible
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by Inedible »

So far no one has mentioned Bruce Moen. He teaches people to communicate with people who have died and moved on. It may be helpful to develop the ability to do this for yourself. Not for the purpose of keeping specific people in your life, but for better understanding of the importance of preparing for your own transition. It may be enough just to read about cases where information was received and verified through more objective methods afterward.
2600htz
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Almost all the teachings can aim to a pleasant abiding in the present moment, not in future rebirths.
A pleasant abiding for the practitioner or the ones that interact with him.
There is a sutta where i think some kings asks the Buddha that question.

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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by befriend »

I asked my late teacher if there was no nibbana would she still meditate and practice Buddhism she said yes because she experiences many less defilements because of Dhamma practice.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by pelican »

Inedible wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:13 pm So far no one has mentioned Bruce Moen. He teaches people to communicate with people who have died and moved on. It may be helpful to develop the ability to do this for yourself. Not for the purpose of keeping specific people in your life, but for better understanding of the importance of preparing for your own transition. It may be enough just to read about cases where information was received and verified through more objective methods afterward.
I actually know about Bruce Moen (and the Monroe Institute) already, due to my NDE and OBE research. Similar to Robert Monroe and Thomas Campbell, I think he is not trustworthy. If you think there is anything specifically that should count as evidence, I'd be interested for sure though. As I said, I've collected a lot of scientific research about these topics. In addition to the ~80 scientific papers, I've also read most of the popular OBE literature and looked at stuff like the Monroe Institute explorer series (live recordings of people from the TMI going "out of body" and reporting their experiences). [btw. I collected the research papers as well as links to the more anecdotal evidence on discord and am always willing to share, if someone is interested]
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cappuccino
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

whenever someone dies and thinks to come back and tell


some hundreds or thousands of years have passed on Earth


their friends are gone, no one to tell


hence we don't hear about the afterlife
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by pegembara »

pelican wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:13 am Hi everyone,

I've recently read "What the Buddha taught" and I've been having a few doubts about the four noble truths, so I thought I'd just ask here to see if anyone can clarify.

I was thinking about the first noble truth and I think it kind of loses it's sting when you don't believe in literal rebirth.
If you believe in literal rebirth and you never attain nibbana, you're in for eternal suffering, a pretty good argument to start practicing to get out of that.
But if you do not believe in literal rebirth and you just believe that death is the end, I'm just looking at maybe 50 more years of suffering and afterwards it doesn't matter whether or not I attained nibbana or not.
50 years is not that much, and we can use things like modern medicine and psychology to reduce suffering to a managable amount.

The first noble truth says that there is dukkha, but what the truths also imply is that we really need to get rid of dukkha. Without rebirth, death does that job for us at some point. So it seems to me, that without rebirth, there is no compelling reason to practice Buddhism.

I'm interested to hear some opinions of people who know more about Buddhism than me.

thank you,
pelican
Unlike religions that promise eternal happiness/suffering after death, Buddhism is about ending of suffering(or attaining "happiness") pre-mortem. That is something that is verifiable while you are still alive unlike the promise of only being able to attain the goal after death.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:10 am I actually know about Bruce Moen (and the Monroe Institute) already, due to my NDE and OBE research.
Are you suggested there is a self or soul that has an individualized NDE & OBE?
pelican wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:13 am The first noble truth says that there is dukkha, but what the truths also imply is that we really need to get rid of dukkha.
The first noble truth does not appear to say "there is dukkha". The first noble truth appears to define what dukkha actually is. If what dukkha actually is cannot be defined or identified, I imagine it is not possible to get rid of dukkha.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by Inedible »

A person doesn't need to have a good reason to practice Buddhism. Just the ability to follow directions. I'm working on developing that quality in myself. It has taken a lot of years to realize that I need to read the Suttas and focus on doing what they say.
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by pelican »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:57 am Are you suggested there is a self or soul that has an individualized NDE & OBE?
No, my research has lead me to the conclusion that NDEs and OBEs are hallucinations and nothing more than that.

One point has come up a few times and I've ignored it until now: freeing yourself of suffering in this life as a reason to practice Buddhism. This can be a legitimate reason to practice, I think, but for me, it's not. The most important argument is similar to my previous arguments:

Previously, I have said that without rebirth suffering has no "eternal" permanency and that's why it's not a pressing problem. But even without looking into eternity or life after death, the pre-mortem suffering in this life has no permanency either. All things are impermanent, good things and bad things. If you feel grief caused by loss, the grief does not last forever. Neither does pain or other kinds of suffering. They are all temporary and solve themselves without the need to practice anything.
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by befriend »

Id practice Buddhism even if it didn't help alleviate my symptoms because it makes me happy. And give me direction in this life. It has helped me with my schizophrenia and anxiety. Something time doesn't heal.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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DooDoot
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 pm One point has come up a few times and I've ignored it until now: freeing yourself of suffering in this life as a reason to practice Buddhism. This can be a legitimate reason to practice, I think, but for me, it's not.
The above appears contrary to the scriptures plus i already pointed out it appears you have not defined or identified what suffering is.
pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 pmPreviously, I have said that without rebirth suffering
Where do the scriptures refer to "rebirth suffering"? :shrug:
pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 pmAll things are impermanent, good things and bad things. If you feel grief caused by loss, the grief does not last forever. Neither does pain or other kinds of suffering.
But the scriptures highlight end "grief" (domanassa) is countless places.
pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 pmThey are all temporary and solve themselves without the need to practice anything.
The above idea appears totally false and contrary to what the Buddha taught.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Nicolas
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by Nicolas »

Apaṇṇaka Sutta (MN 60) and Kālāma Sutta (AN 3.65) are relevant. (I’m not quoting the specific passages because I’m using my phone, my apologies.)
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DooDoot
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

The2nd wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:20 am So if there is only this one life then it doesnt matter...
But it does matter. It matters a lot. U appear to not understand it is the view of only one life that makes death or impermanence very imminent & real and thus the urgent need to know how to pass away peacefully; particularly as society becomes more & more crazy. It appears Gotama was not thinking about future lives below:
Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to aging, not beyond aging, sees another who is aged, he is horrified, humiliated & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to aging, not beyond aging. If I — who am subject to aging, not beyond aging — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is aged, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the [typical] young person's intoxication with youth entirely dropped away.

Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to illness, not beyond illness, sees another who is ill, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to illness, not beyond illness. And if I — who am subject to illness, not beyond illness — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is ill, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the healthy person's intoxication with health entirely dropped away.

"Even though I was endowed with such fortune, such total refinement, the thought occurred to me: 'When an untaught, run-of-the-mill person, himself subject to death, not beyond death, sees another who is dead, he is horrified, humiliated, & disgusted, oblivious to himself that he too is subject to death, not beyond death. And if I — who am subject to death, not beyond death — were to be horrified, humiliated, & disgusted on seeing another person who is dead, that would not be fitting for me.' As I noticed this, the living person's intoxication with life entirely dropped away.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
The2nd wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:20 ambut if it isn't, then making an effort in Dhamma practice is quite important.
No. It appears the opposite. It appears it is those that believe in future lives that don't make a strong effort. For example, Ajahn Brahm is always telling his audience there are so many lives in the future to attain the path therefore don't worry so much if you don't progress. It was Bhikkhu Bodhi saying it is OK for Buddhists to kill Nazis to save Jews because those Buddhists can practise non-killing in future lives.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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cappuccino
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:15 pm Where do the scriptures refer to "rebirth suffering"?
sam·sa·ra
noun
the cycle of death and rebirth to which life in the material world is bound.
pegembara
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Re: No reason to practice Buddhism without rebirth

Post by pegembara »

pelican wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:57 am Are you suggested there is a self or soul that has an individualized NDE & OBE?
No, my research has lead me to the conclusion that NDEs and OBEs are hallucinations and nothing more than that.

One point has come up a few times and I've ignored it until now: freeing yourself of suffering in this life as a reason to practice Buddhism. This can be a legitimate reason to practice, I think, but for me, it's not. The most important argument is similar to my previous arguments:

Previously, I have said that without rebirth suffering has no "eternal" permanency and that's why it's not a pressing problem. But even without looking into eternity or life after death, the pre-mortem suffering in this life has no permanency either. All things are impermanent, good things and bad things. If you feel grief caused by loss, the grief does not last forever. Neither does pain or other kinds of suffering. They are all temporary and solve themselves without the need to practice anything.
The Buddhist position is not annihilationism as opposed to eternalism. The suffering that ends with death is not the point.
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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