Four Noble Truths

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floatsy1
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Four Noble Truths

Post by floatsy1 »

Introduction

That both I and you have had to travel and trudge through
this long round is owing to our not discovering,
not penetrating four truths. What four?
They are: The Noble Truth of Suffering,
The Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering,
The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering,
and the Noble Truth of the Way
Leading to the Cessation of Suffering.

Digha Nikaya, Sutta 16


The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Buddha’s teaching on the Four Noble Truths, has been the main reference that I have used for my practice over the years. It is the teaching we used in our monastery in Thailand. The Theravada school of Buddhism regards this sutta as the quintessence of the teaching of the Buddha. This one sutta contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment.

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/ ... le-truths/
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DNS
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by DNS »

floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am The Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Buddha’s teaching on the Four Noble Truths, has been the main reference that I have used for my practice over the years. It is the teaching we used in our monastery in Thailand. The Theravada school of Buddhism regards this sutta as the quintessence of the teaching of the Buddha. This one sutta contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment.
SN 56.11
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/SN_56. ... tana_Sutta
JohnK
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by JohnK »

floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am This one sutta contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment.
I certainly agree about the centrality of the sutta, but if it were really "all that is necessary," there would not be so many other suttas, right? I suppose I am just being nit-picky about your enthusiastic wording. A case could be made that all the other suttas elaborate on the truths and help people understand, develop and realize.
As the sutta says, it was apparently all that was necessary for Kondanna. :)
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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cappuccino
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by cappuccino »

floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am This one sutta contains all that is necessary
No…
coconut
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by coconut »

JohnK wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:57 pm
floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am This one sutta contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment.
I certainly agree about the centrality of the sutta, but if it were really "all that is necessary," there would not be so many other suttas, right? I suppose I am just being nit-picky about your enthusiastic wording. A case could be made that all the other suttas elaborate on the truths and help people understand, develop and realize.
As the sutta says, it was apparently all that was necessary for Kondanna. :)
:anjali:
Yep.

- For Kondanna it was the first sermon (four noble truths)
- For the remaining group of five it was the second sermon (3 characteristics)
- For Sariputta it was one sentence about impermanence
- For Moggallana it was the same sentence about impermanence

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.
This line is important because it shows that you don't actually need to hear it directly from the Buddha to attain path, the dhamma is independent, hence once the wheel of dhamma has been turned, then it's "out there" in the world to propagate like seeds flying outwards from a tree in the wind, which will multiply into more trees and more seeds.

But the line also shows that Sariputta and Moggallana have been ascetics for quite a while and probably had jhana training as they were able to fill in the 90% missing context from that one line, enough to destroy Identity view.
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by Dhammanando »

JohnK wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:57 pm I suppose I am just being nit-picky about your enthusiastic wording.
They are actually Ajahn Sumedho's words, not floatsy's.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
SarathW
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by SarathW »

It is important to note that people who attain Nibbana instantly, by hearing one word of Buddha already had perfected Sila and Samadhi. What they need was only Panna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Post by sunnat »

Kondanna attained streamentry after all the work he had done plus on hearing the instructions of the wheel turning discourse while continuing to practice. As a result he gained unshaken faith. All five then continued to practice under instructions by the Buddha and all attained stream entry.

Then Buddha realizing the ramaining conceit in all five gave the discourse on not self. As a result of prior and continuing practice they all reached the goal during this discourse.


There are no inherent qualities in the words of the Buddha whereby some osmotic process a listener advances on the path. Progress is dependent on prior efforts of each individual person.
coconut
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by coconut »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:44 pm It is important to note that people who attain Nibbana instantly, by hearing one word of Buddha already had perfected Sila and Samadhi. What they need was only Panna.
They also probably met Buddhas or the dhamma in previous lives. For example, Maha Moggallana was Mara Dusi and threw a rock at monks following Buddha Kakusandha, which led to him being instantly reborn in hell, but he was exposed to the dhamma in previous lives enough to hate Ariyas. Moggallana did a lot of terrible things in previous actually, like killing his own parents.
Then the Buddha Kakusandha robed up in the morning and, taking this bowl and robe, entered the village for alms with Venerable Vidhura as his second monk.

Then Māra Dūsī took possession of a certain boy, picked up a rock, and hit Vidhura on the head, cracking it open. Then Vidhura, with blood pouring from his cracked skull, still followed behind the Buddha Kakusandha. Then the Buddha Kakusandha turned his whole body, the way that elephants do, to look back, saying, ‘This Māra Dūsī knows no bounds.’ And with that look Māra Dūsī fell from that place and was reborn in the Great Hell.
https://suttacentral.net/mn50/en/sujato
JohnK
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by JohnK »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:02 pm
JohnK wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:57 pm I suppose I am just being nit-picky about your enthusiastic wording.
They are actually Ajahn Sumedho's words, not floatsy's.
Oops! :)
(But no retraction -- centrality, but not necessarily sufficiency.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by Mahabrahma »

Diffident beings have different capacities and levels of understanding, one person may need years or lifetimes of study and practice to work through the fetters while someone else may attain liberation after one conversation with the Buddha. One thing we must not forget, however, is that the gift of Enlightenment is for all.
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:20 pm
JohnK wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:57 pm
floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am This one sutta contains all that is necessary for understanding Dhamma and for enlightenment.
I certainly agree about the centrality of the sutta, but if it were really "all that is necessary," there would not be so many other suttas, right? I suppose I am just being nit-picky about your enthusiastic wording. A case could be made that all the other suttas elaborate on the truths and help people understand, develop and realize.
As the sutta says, it was apparently all that was necessary for Kondanna. :)
:anjali:
Yep.

- For Kondanna it was the first sermon (four noble truths)
- For the remaining group of five it was the second sermon (3 characteristics)
- For Sariputta it was one sentence about impermanence
- For Moggallana it was the same sentence about impermanence

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.
This line is important because it shows that you don't actually need to hear it directly from the Buddha to attain path, the dhamma is independent, hence once the wheel of dhamma has been turned, then it's "out there" in the world to propagate like seeds flying outwards from a tree in the wind, which will multiply into more trees and more seeds.

But the line also shows that Sariputta and Moggallana have been ascetics for quite a while and probably had jhana training as they were able to fill in the 90% missing context from that one line, enough to destroy Identity view.
i think intepretation of experience acc to 3 charecterstic is very important than having mere jhana or mere intellectual understanding... only should have the breakthrough (mind dont do name and form on beings)
dont think
floatsy1
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Re: Four Noble Truths

Post by floatsy1 »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:09 pm
floatsy1 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:57 am This one sutta contains all that is necessary
No…
I see it like Luang Por. but understand if others see it differently.
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