To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

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asahi
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To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by asahi »

Hello

I was wondering if the notion of kamma in buddhism are as shown below quote which seemingly making it quite impossible to end suffering before one could really exhausted all the kamma performed ? Isnt this part resemble the jains teaching ?





“ Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated. ”
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confusedlayman
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by confusedlayman »

asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm Hello

I was wondering if the notion of kamma in buddhism are as shown below quote which seemingly making it quite impossible to end suffering before one could really exhausted all the kamma performed ? Isnt this part resemble the jains teaching ?





“ Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated. ”
no need as in order to experience all karma, then holy life is impossible
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
perkele
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by perkele »

Here is an earlier discussion about this topic: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 20#p572020

According to the Lonaphala sutta, the results to be experienced can vary greatly in their magnitude. For someone who has developed an "immeasurable" state of mind (i.e. brahmaviharas), effects of past kamma can "burn up" with relatively little effect.
For example, Angulimala experienced (potentially deadly, skull broken, etc.) physical abuse in his later years of life as an arahat, instead of going to hell for an eon or something. I suppose, all past kamma can have a chance of bearing its result within one final lifetime if it is so condensed.
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confusedlayman
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by confusedlayman »

perkele wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:22 pm Here is an earlier discussion about this topic: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 20#p572020

According to the Lonaphala sutta, the results to be experienced can vary greatly in their magnitude. For someone who has developed an "immeasurable" state of mind (i.e. brahmaviharas), effects of past kamma can "burn up" with relatively little effect.
For example, Angulimala experienced (potentially deadly, skull broken, etc.) physical abuse in his later years of life as an arahat, instead of going to hell for an eon or something. I suppose, all past kamma can have a chance of bearing its result within one final lifetime if it is so condensed.
some of the karma won't occur ... karma experienced in break up of wife and husband won't occur if u r born in brahma world and attain nibbana there
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

No.
There exists like:
Ahosi-kamma: 'ineffective kamma'
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Ahosi-kamma

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
perkele
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by perkele »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:47 pm No.
There exists like:
Ahosi-kamma: 'ineffective kamma'
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Ahosi-kamma

:heart:
That concept seems to contradict the sutta quoted in the OP. Here a link to a sutta translation with the same statement: AN 10.208: Brahmavihara Sutta

It is an exhortation to develop the Brahma Viharas, thinking:
AN 10.208: Brahmavihara Sutta wrote:'Whatever evil action has been done by this body born of action, that will all be experienced here [in this life]. It will not come to be hereafter.'
The concept of ahosi-kamma does not exist in the suttas, afaik. So I take it with a grain of salt.
Last edited by perkele on Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

perkele wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:48 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:47 pm No.
There exists like:
Ahosi-kamma: 'ineffective kamma'
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Ahosi-kamma

:heart:
That concept seems to contradict the sutta quoted in the OP. Here a link to a sutta translation with the same statement: AN 10.208: Brahmavihara Sutta

It is an exhortation to develop the Brahma Viharas, thinking:
AN 10.208: Brahmavihara Sutta wrote:'Whatever evil action has been done by this body born of action, that will all be experienced here [in this life]. It will not come to be hereafter.'
The concept of ahosi-kamma does not exist in the suttas, afaik. So I take it with a grain of salt.







Very well then, what is your preferred answer to OP Title question?
  • To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?
Yes? or No?

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

perkele wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:48 pm ...
The concept of ahosi-kamma does not exist in the suttas, afaik.
...

KN
paṭisambhidāmagga
1 mahāvagga
1.7. Kammakathā
https://suttacentral.net/ps1.7/pli/ms

  • Ahosi kammaṃ, ahosi kammavipāko. Ahosi kammaṃ, nāhosi kammavipāko. Ahosi kammaṃ, atthi kammavipāko. Ahosi kammaṃ, natthi kammavipāko. Ahosi kammaṃ, bhavissati kammavipāko. Ahosi kammaṃ, na bhavissati kammavipāko. (Atītakammaṃ) (6:6)
    Atthi kammaṃ, atthi kammavipāko. Atthi kammaṃ, natthi kammavipāko. Atthi kammaṃ, bhavissati kammavipāko. Atthi kammaṃ, na bhavissati kammavipāko. (Paccuppannakammaṃ) (4:10)
    Bhavissati kammaṃ, bhavissati kammavipāko. Bhavissati kammaṃ, na bhavissati kammavipāko. (Anāgatakammaṃ) (2:12)
    Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, ahosi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, nāhosi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, atthi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, natthi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Atthi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, atthi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, natthi kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi kusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Bhavissati kusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko. Bhavissati kusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati kusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, ahosi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, nāhosi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, atthi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, natthi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Atthi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, atthi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, natthi akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi akusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Bhavissati akusalaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko. Bhavissati akusalaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati akusalassa kammassa vipāko.
    Ahosi sāvajjaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi anavajjaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi kaṇhaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi sukkaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi sukhudrayaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi dukkhudrayaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi sukhavipākaṃ kammaṃ … pe … ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, ahosi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, nāhosi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, atthi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, natthi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Ahosi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko.
    Atthi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, atthi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, natthi dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Atthi dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko.
    Bhavissati dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipāko. Bhavissati dukkhavipākaṃ kammaṃ, na bhavissati dukkhavipākassa kammassa vipākoti.
    Kammakathā niṭṭhitā.
How about these various kinds of kamma the fruits of which won't occur, regarding past, present & future kamma? ... speaking of the concept.

:heart:
Last edited by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta on Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

.


To end suffering one must abandon the underlying tendency to react with craving when pleasant feelings arise, abandon the underlying tendency to react with aversion when unpleasant feelings arise and abandon the underlying tendency to react with ignorance when neutral feelings arise.


Volitional kamma gives rise to kamma resultants. Re-acting to kamma resultants is a volitional kamma that in turn leads to kamma resultants and so on proliferating the resultant suffering.


When abandoning the tendency to react to kamma resultants (note: kamma and kamma resultants are not the same thing, they may have a similar essence, bad > bad, good > good, but one does not experience past kamma, one experiences resultants of past kamma) suffering diminishes and ends. See the simile of two arrows.

PS it is also useful to consider the simile of a pinch of salt in a cup of pure water as opposed to a pinch of salt in a bucket of pure water. A lot of good merit can ameliorate a pinch of bad.
Last edited by sunnat on Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
perkele
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by perkele »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:18 pm Very well then, what is your preferred answer to OP Title question?
  • To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?
Yes? or No?
What does the sutta say?

Yes or no?
asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm “ Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated. ”
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DooDoot
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm I was wondering if the notion of kamma in buddhism are as shown below quote which seemingly making it quite impossible to end suffering before one could really exhausted all the kamma performed ?
For a developed mind, the results of kamma can be very minor and only a feeling. The most lofty teachings about kamma (which appear often misinterpreted) appear to say old kamma is to be merely felt and not identified with.
Bhikkhus, this body is not yours, nor does it belong to others. It is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.37/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:56 am
For a developed mind, the results of kamma can be very minor and only a feeling. The most lofty teachings about kamma (which appear often misinterpreted) appear to say old kamma is to be merely felt and not identified with.
Bhikkhus, this body is not yours, nor does it belong to others. It is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.37/en/bodhi
Is it possible old kamma merely be felt but not identified with for someone whom still not an ariya or without minimal jhana attaintment ? :roll:
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BlackMagic
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by BlackMagic »

asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm Hello

I was wondering if the notion of kamma in buddhism are as shown below quote which seemingly making it quite impossible to end suffering before one could really exhausted all the kamma performed ? Isnt this part resemble the jains teaching ?





“ Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated. ”
Nirodha could be said to be the culmination of the four noble truths; as direct experience not rote or grasping experience... it very important then to practice the eightfold path by meditation and meditation only as one then goes through the bardos of becoming. Well, one's goal is to cease all becoming in all realms and bardos to be freed... focus on each skandha within a hair's breadth of attention as they arise and pass.

After your wheel is conquered? Mara's wheel then collides who is Mara... the female you, the so called "zygote" that can't unsplit as it was not self and "others" kamma that split it. Some traditions refer to it as; the red and white drop.

Imagine an atom of oxygen and hydrogen... it never asked to be split as it already once joined; splitting water hurts like hell and yet it was not either hydrogen nor oxygen's; kamma that split it out of yab/yum.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
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DooDoot
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:59 am Is it possible old kamma merely be felt but not identified with for someone whom still not an ariya or without minimal jhana attaintment ?
Actually, it is unlikely a non-ariya (aka, "puthujjana") will experience all accumulated kamma because their mind does not enter into deep meditation. Instead, the puthujjana consumes drugs & alcohol and forgets or engages in other forms of distraction & escapism.

The quote says:
Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results...
The quote appears to be about those ariyans who terminate kamma rather than about the every day life of a puthujjana.

In summary, your 2nd question to me appears to contradict your original post. Your original post appeared to be about ariyans but your second post appears to be about puthujjana. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm Hello
Isnt this part resemble the jains teaching ?
Somewhat, the Blessed One also taught a way of exhausting old fuel by burning it off. But in order to do this adding new fuel has to be stopped.

And so, Udāyī, when craving ends, deeds end; when deeds end suffering ends.”

Iti kho, udāyi, taṇhakkhayā kammakkhayo, kammakkhayā dukkhakkhayo”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.26/en/sujato
Suppose, bhikkhus, an oil lamp was burning in dependence on oil and a wick, and a man would pour oil into it and adjust the wick from time to time. Thus, sustained by that oil, fuelled by it, that oil lamp would burn for a very long time
Suppose, bhikkhus, an oil lamp was burning in dependence on oil and a wick, and the man would not pour oil into it or adjust the wick from time to time. Thus, when the former supply of fuel is exhausted, that oil lamp, not being fed with any more fuel, lacking sustenance, would be extinguished
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.53/en/bodhi

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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