To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

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Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Srilankaputra wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:05 am
asahi wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:03 pm Hello
Isnt this part resemble the jains teaching ?
Somewhat, the Blessed One also taught a way of exhausting old fuel by burning it off. But in order to do this adding new fuel has to be stopped.

And so, Udāyī, when craving ends, deeds end; when deeds end suffering ends.”

Iti kho, udāyi, taṇhakkhayā kammakkhayo, kammakkhayā dukkhakkhayo”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.26/en/sujato
Suppose, bhikkhus, an oil lamp was burning in dependence on oil and a wick, and a man would pour oil into it and adjust the wick from time to time. Thus, sustained by that oil, fuelled by it, that oil lamp would burn for a very long time
Suppose, bhikkhus, an oil lamp was burning in dependence on oil and a wick, and the man would not pour oil into it or adjust the wick from time to time. Thus, when the former supply of fuel is exhausted, that oil lamp, not being fed with any more fuel, lacking sustenance, would be extinguished
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.53/en/bodhi
Side note:
And wherever that deed ripens, its result is experienced—either in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye
https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato

What gets exhausted is the kamma, for lack of a better term, that is destined to be experienced in this life.

Kamma that was destined to be experienced next life, or in some subsequent period looses any basis for ripening.
So, Ānanda, deeds are the field, consciousness is the seed, and craving is the moisture.

Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.76/en/sujato

Khīṇaṃ purāṇaṃ nava natthi sambhavaṃ,
Virattacittāyatike bhavasmiṃ;
Te khīṇabījā avirūḷhichandā,
Nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ padīpo

Ended the old, there is no new taking birth.
dispassioned their minds toward further becoming,
they, with no seed, no desire for growth,
the prudent, go out like this flame.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
asahi
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by asahi »

Srilankaputra wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:30 am
What gets exhausted is the kamma, for lack of a better term, that is destined to be experienced in this life.

Kamma that was destined to be experienced next life, or in some subsequent period looses any basis for ripening.

Khīṇaṃ purāṇaṃ nava natthi sambhavaṃ,
Virattacittāyatike bhavasmiṃ;
Te khīṇabījā avirūḷhichandā,
Nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ padīpo

Ended the old, there is no new taking birth.
dispassioned their minds toward further becoming,
they, with no seed, no desire for growth,
the prudent, go out like this flame.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Probably the entering into the stream resulted in craving loses its powers eventually dries up the support condition for kamma to get ripen . Not that all previous kamma get ripen in this life prior to full awakening .
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robertk
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by robertk »

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=29380

mike quoted the commentary by ven. Bodhi along with his note:
[2181] On the threefold ripening of kamma, see pp. 1639–40, note 372.
["Either to be experienced in this present life, or to be experienced follow-
ing rebirth, or to be experienced in some subsequent existence.”]
The Buddha’s statement that there is no termination of volitional
kamma so long as one has not experienced its results seems to
contradict one of the main premises of his teaching, namely, that
to attain liberation—”to make an end of suffering”—one need
not experience the results of all the kamma one has accumulated
in the past. This tenet (at least according to the Nikāyas) was
proposed by the Jains, as stated at MN 14.17, I 92, 35 –93, 10 ; MN
101.10, II 218, 1–12 . However, since the cycle of rebirths is “with-
out discoverable beginning” (anamatagga saṃsāra), and in this
long stretch we have all accumulated an immensity of kamma,
it would virtually require infinite time to exhaust such kamma
by experiencing its results. The Buddha taught that the key to
liberation was not the eradication of past kamma (whether by
experiencing its results or by austerities) but the elimination of
the defilements. Arahants, by terminating the defilements, extin-
guish the potential for ripening of all their past kamma beyond
the residue that might ripen in their final life. Mp explains the
text’s statement as having an implicit meaning: “This is intended
to show that as long as saṃsāra continues, if there is kamma that
has acquired the capacity to ripen (paṭiladdhavipākārahakamma)
‘there is no place on earth where one might escape an evil deed’”
(the citation, na vijjati so jagatippadeso, yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya
pāpakammā, is from Dhp 127). The point, in other words, is not
that all kamma created will have to ripen, but that any kamma
created and accumulated retains the potential to ripen as long
as one wanders on in the cycle of rebirths
.
sarah from dsg supplied pali

https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/165497

S: This passage is in AN 10: 217 Sañcetanika Sutta 1 (Bodhi translation)
https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.217

‘‘Nāhaṃ , bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā [appaṭisaṃviditvā (sī. syā. pī.)]byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi. Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā [upapajjaṃ vā (ka.) a. ni. 6.63 passitabbaṃ, upapajja vā (ma. ni. 3.303)] apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭisaṃveditvā dukkhassantakiriyaṃ vadāmi."

In B.Bodhi's footnote, he quotes from the commentary in the following passage:

"Arahants, by terminating the defilements, extin-
guish the potential for ripening of all their past kamma beyond
the residue that might ripen in their final life. Mp explains the
text’s statement as having an implicit meaning: “This is intended
to show that as long as saṃsāra continues, if there is kamma that
has acquired the capacity to ripen (paṭiladdhavipākārahakamma)
‘there is no place on earth where one might escape an evil deed’”
(the citation, na vijjati so jagatippadeso, yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya
pāpakammā, is from Dhp 127). The point, in other words, is not
that all kamma created will have to ripen, but that any kamma
created and accumulated retains the potential to ripen as long
as one wanders on in the cycle of rebirths."

Here is the commentary passage in full:
217-218. Sattamesañcetanikānanti cetetvā pakappetvā katānaṃ.Upacitānanti citānaṃ vaḍḍhitānaṃ.Appaṭisaṃveditvāti tesaṃ kammānaṃ vipākaṃ avediyitvā.Byantībhāvanti vigatantabhāvaṃ tesaṃ kammānaṃ paricchedaparivaṭumatākaraṇaṃ.Tañca kho diṭṭheva dhammeti tañca kho vipākaṃ diṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme.Upapajjanti upapajjavedanīyaṃ anantare attabhāve.Apare vā pariyāyeti aparapariyāyavedanīyaṃ pana saṃsārappavatte sati sahassimepi attabhāveti. Iminā idaṃ dasseti ‘‘saṃsārappavatte paṭiladdhavipākārahakamme na vijjati so jagatippadeso, yattha ṭhito mucceyya pāpakammā’’ti.Tividhātitippakārā.Kāyakammantasandosabyāpattīti kāyakammantasaṅkhātā vipatti. Iminā nayena sabbapadāni veditabbāni. Aṭṭhameapaṇṇako maṇīti samantato caturasso pāsako.
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BlackMagic
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by BlackMagic »

None of that posted really helps...

As even in one's "final life" others attachment to not self; As a "self" brings more suffering than any previous lives one has "had". Ever hear of the diamond throne of the Vajrayana that is clustered/stuck with beings? Theravada calls it the jambaputta tree; whether they as a path know that it is a diamond throne or not? I can't say.

I can say that all not path is poison to it; like the word saint/reverend etc is unenlightened Christianity poison etc. as name and form builds the kind of "fuel" mentioned.

All I've ever noticed from the ordained is putting an attendant's hand to break the rules instead of their own... this experience rings true the "no one can enlighten or bring another to awakening." such a thing is wishful thinking, and such things as "fame" only brings more "fuel" to what is already aflame.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.
Voltron007
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:11 am

Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by Voltron007 »

I think you have to stop karmma without residue. Which is kamma without desire, hatred, or delusion. Even though old kamma is still taking effect for an Arahant, New kamma won't take effect because there is no residue.
pinit29
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Re: To end suffering one must experience all accumulated kamma ?

Post by pinit29 »

You cannot end suffering by experiencing all accumulated karma. This is because you will never able to experience all accumulated karma if you cannot stop creating one.

The cause of suffering is craving. The cause of craving is the lack of true knowledge to obtain true happiness, the knowledge to obtain nibbana. If you can obtain the true knowledge of obtaining nibbana, then you can end your craving and hence, end your suffering.
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