Is it good karma to be born as a westerner?

[santa100]

MN 136 appears unrelated to this question. As for MN 135, it is merely one sutta from thousands spoken to a Brahmin student and appears unrelated to land of birth. Your viewpoint appears to say there are not rich people in Asia. Also, since the West acquired much of its recent wealthy from colonialism, which included theft, drug dealing, etc, it appears MN 135 is illogical if the questionable translations & interpretations are taken on face value.

Your viewpoint seems to be a case-in-point of the Dunning Kruger Effect

[DooDoot]

Most of the western countries are better developed and have better standard of living, but most are not Buddhists.
Most of the buddhist countries are poor.

Once upon a time, it was different. The lands of the East (China, Persia, Turkey, etc) were better developed. It appears national wealth is largely related to militarism, imperialism & colonialism rather than virtue.

The idea found in some Buddhist scriptures that material wealth is related to good karma appears merely restricted to certain situations rather than should be taken as a general principle.

For example, scriptures such as MN 135 say, in the human state (manussattaṃ), acquiring wealth is related to virtue.

MN 135 obviously should not be considered alone but in reference to other suttas. Scriptures such as AN 6.39 & SN 56.47 clearly say the human state does not occur from actions born of greed, hatred, delusion and devouring of the weak.

Therefore, it appears obvious MN 135 does not apply to all acquisitions of material wealth but only to acquisitions of material wealth in the human state where greed, hatred, delusion & exploitation does not prevail.

Again, carefully refer to AN 6.39 & SN 56.47.

My question is, is it good karma that you were born in the western world with good standard of living but no knowlege of buddhism

The above is obviously no longer relevant because there is knowledge of Buddhims in the West. However, in the recent past, yes, in Buddhism, in was considered a misfortunate to not live within the sphere of Ariyans (ariyāyatane; AN 6.96) or to live where Buddhist monks & nuns did not visit (AN 8.29).

Therefore, in Buddhism, it is not good karma that you were born in the western world with good standard of living but no knowlege of buddhism. AN 6.96 & AN 8.29 explicitly say this.

or is it better karma to be born as a buddhist in a poor buddhist country.

The above appears relative. Buddhist countries were obviously not poor. For example, Thailand and Burma were always bountiful countries. If Burma was poor, the British would not have colonialised & economically plundered it.

Obviously most of the people with the very good karma will either be born as a westerner who will find buddhism later on in life or be born as a buddhist to a rich family in a poor buddhist country.

The above is not obvious and appears to be mere materialism; as i previously explained. Buddhism appears to make it clear that wealth from good kamma only occurs when there is no greed, hatred, delusion & exploitation. This virtue obviously does not inherently apply to the West nor inherently apply to the wealthy of the East.

The Buddhist scriptures in many places refer to wealth acquired by harmful illicit means (SN 42.12; AN 4.62; DN 31; etc).

Therefore, as I already suggested, in Buddhism, there appears no inherent connection between material wealth & virtue.

In short, it appears many Buddhist misinterpret MN 135, a sutta spoken to a Brahmin student rather than to Buddhists.

So generally who do you think has better karma a westerner with good standard of living but no knowledge of buddhism, or a buddhist born in a poor buddhist country.

As already said, the above question appears flawed with erroneous assumptions.

Obviously none of this matters if the person doesn't practice buddhism and only a buddhist in theory. However even to practice buddhism, you must have the fortune to get to know it first.

As said, AN 6.96 & AN 8.29 explicitly say living in a Dhamma Land is the best fortune.

[TRobinson465]

Its a matter of the individual. But because at the current moment western nations are more developed and have less poverty, crime, pollution and corruption and have higher incomes on average than most of the world. I would say its not unreasonable to say that people reborn in these countries have more merit than people born in underdeveloped parts of the world on average. Of course this has nothing to do with race or location because these national traits fluctuate with time. In the Dark ages Europe was one of the worst places to live.

It does depend on how you look at it however, as material prosperity is near worthless in comparison to spiritual wealth.

Better it is to live one day virtuous and meditative than to live a hundred years immoral and uncontrolled.

Better it is to live one day wise and meditative than to live a hundred years foolish and uncontrolled.

Better it is to live one day strenuous and resolute than to live a hundred years sluggish and dissipated.

Better it is to live one day seeing the rise and fall of things than to live a hundred years without ever seeing the rise and fall of things.

Better it is to live one day seeing the Deathless than to live a hundred years without ever seeing the Deathless.

Better it is to live one day seeing the Supreme Truth than to live a hundred years without ever seeing the Supreme Truth.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp100-115/en/buddharakkhita

A wealthy westerner with the most perfect and privelaged life imaginable who lives his whole life being unvirtuous or without ever finding the Dhamma is still less fortunate than a poor impoverished villager in Asia who finds the Dhamma and practices accordingly.

[tamdrin]

One great Tibetan teacher said it's better to be born as a stray temple dog of a country with dharma than a king of a country without dharma. I'm not sure if this is true but you get the point.


However, in modern times thanks to technology, everyone can have access to the teachings.


It's very important to cultivate as much wholesomeness as we can in this life to secure a happy future.

[SteRo]

My question is, is it good karma that you were born in the western world with good standard of living but no knowlege of buddhism or is it better karma to be born as a buddhist in a poor buddhist country.

Even those born in "a poor buddhist country" are born without knowledge of buddhism. All knowledge one acquires is conditioned by family and society.
But as to your question: No matter whether it is karma or not I can't complain and I would not want to be born somewhere else.

[confusedlayman]

My question is, is it good karma that you were born in the western world with good standard of living but no knowlege of buddhism or is it better karma to be born as a buddhist in a poor buddhist country.

Even those born in "a poor buddhist country" are born without knowledge of buddhism. All knowledge one acquires is conditioned by family and society.
But as to your question: No matter whether it is karma or not I can't complain and I would not want to be born somewhere else.

pls be born again to help me out.. in my next life if I get human birth and sign up to this forum again.. how will stero help me understand non abiding mm?

[salayatananirodha]

the question is really too general. but in either digha nikaya 32 or 33 there are conditions listed that are favorable/unfavorable for coming into the dhamma. for example, being in a war-torn country or having a disability that prevents you from learning the dhamma
but i find there are westerners who are very analytical and do well with that and convert for the reason of being convinced by doctrine but also there is overanalysis and arrogance and defiance of doctrine
there are also asians who grow up buddhist but don't much investigate the teachings. the ones who do, however, probably have an advantage because they grew up performing acts of merit and live around other buddhists
some asian cultural norms are much more buddhist, such as reverence for one's parents and giving alms to ascetics. again this is overly generalized but i dont want to dismiss your question outright.

what matters is this: pure actions have pleasant results; tainted actions have unpleasant results.
don't get wrapped up in the details. material conditions as they were will conform to the kamma you make

[cappuccino]

Buddha said :

living condition is based on moral purity

[mjaviem]

I'm not sure living with highways, jets, trees around big houses, careers that must be successful, is better than herding goats, drinking water from a stream and get bitten often by mosquitoes.

[DNS]

I'm not sure living with highways, jets, trees around big houses, careers that must be successful, is better than herding goats, drinking water from a stream and get bitten often by mosquitoes.

OTOH, if one can reach some level of mindfulness and equanimity in all the hustle-bustle-rat-race of an urban area and career, how much easier it might be when they go off to a retreat?

[bodhifollower]

Practice meditation until you have the supernormal knowledge of remembering past lives. Then you can see what kamma you made to be reborn as a westerner. That's the only way to really know.

[BrokenBones]

I once listened to a Dhamma talk from a monk who stated that it was good kamma to be born in a western country but better kamma to be born in a 'Dhamma' country by which he meant an Eastern country. Listening to the talk in an air-conditioned building and having such a vast array of Dhamma teachers and teachings so easily accessible to me without cultural accretions, I couldn't help but see the irony in his point.

Metta

[Gwi]

Are rich people better than poor people?

Someone who likes to joke,
will be born with a snub nose (not sharp).
Someone who likes to talk honestly,
will be born with a straight nose.

who used to like to dānå will be rich,
Those who are lazy to dānå will not.

Indeed, life on earth, it is best
to live simply or richly, but be charitable,
and able to live simply.


Taking refuge in The Buddhå, Dhammå, and Sangghå,
We will surpass the other devas in ten respects:
(1) heavenly life span,
(2) heavenly beauty,
(3) heavenly bliss,
(4) heavenly fame,
(5) heavenly power,
(6) heavenly forms, (7) sounds, (8) mells,
(9) tastes, (10) objects of heavenly touch.

[DooDoot]

Are rich people better than poor people?

MN 135 appears it might possibly say the rich did good karma in past lives. Therefore, those born in Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Indonesia must have done bad kamma in past lives (except the Chinese millionaires in Indonesia who own tobacco and cigarette plantations; they possibly did good karma, according to MN 135).

[Gwi]

Are rich people better than poor people?

MN 135 appears it might possibly say the rich did good karma in past lives. Therefore, those born in Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Indonesia must have done bad kamma in past lives (except the Chinese millionaires in Indonesia who own tobacco and cigarette plantations; they possibly did good karma, according to MN 135).

Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi;
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi;
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi.