cessation of consciousness

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Visigoth
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cessation of consciousness

Post by Visigoth »

Hi all,

I am unable to make sense of the following, among many other things, of Pattica Samuppada.

"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"

Now for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
But, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.

How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness? What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?

I am sorry if the same question, albeit in different form, has been asked earlier. You may directly provide the link thereto, if so.

With Metta
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confusedlayman
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by confusedlayman »

Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am Hi all,

I am unable to make sense of the following, among many other things, of Pattica Samuppada.

"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"

Now for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
But, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.

How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness? What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?

I am sorry if the same question, albeit in different form, has been asked earlier. You may directly provide the link thereto, if so.

With Metta
consciousness is just the activity of cognising something through 6 senses

only when u see phone, u discern phone form and phone name

if there no cognition of phone, the phone form and phone name won't be discerned or knowledge of phone won't be in your cognition or present enduring moment so its out of range or non existent in ones mental continuum of that particular time
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by SarathW »

This is a very good question and I can't recall anyone asking this question previously.
The way I understand the consciousness here refers to the consciousness arisen as a result of ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"
The word "cessation" in this context means the cessation of ignorance, craving & attachment that is polluting & affecting consciousness. Refer to SN 22.5 & SN 22.53.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amNow for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
Consciousness means cognition (MN 43). It is not a life principle. For example, MN 43 refers to the cessation of consciousness, perception & feeling but the maintenance of the life force.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amBut, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.
Yes.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amHow should one understand this cessation of consciousness?
Per my initial answer.

Best wishes for your studies. :)
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Aloka
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Aloka »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 pm
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"
The word "cessation" in this context means the cessation of ignorance, craving & attachment that is polluting & affecting consciousness. Refer to SN 22.5 & SN 22.53.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amNow for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
Consciousness means cognition (MN 43). It is not a life principle. For example, MN 43 refers to the cessation of consciousness, perception & feeling but the maintenance of the life force.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amBut, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.
Yes.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 amHow should one understand this cessation of consciousness?
Per my initial answer.

Best wishes for your studies. :)

Good posting, DD! :thumbsup:


.
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Antaradhana
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Antaradhana »

Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am Hi all,

I am unable to make sense of the following, among many other things, of Pattica Samuppada.

"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"
The paticcasamuppada explains the cycle of conditioned births. When there is no kamma leading to the formation of consciousness and nama-rupa, there is no further existence in any of the worlds (bhava), there is no birth, there is no death.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
Alino
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Alino »

We can conceptualize relationships between name-and-form and consciousness in mathematic way.

1 (or any other number) is name-and-form
0 is unconditioned, uncreated, cessation
Between them there is stream of consciousness

Even 0,00...001 can not touch zero, and 9999 can not compress zero. Its unconditioned by phenomenas.

Imagine an axis zero, and wave of numbers. The distance between axis zero and the point on the wave is consciousness.
If we take any point on this referential - it will create distance between axis and this point, there will be consciousness. That why namarupa create consciousness.
If we take our pencil and draw a line from axis zero to any point, it will create a point, there will be namarupa. That why consciousness create namarupa.

1 and 0 are like two different shores, and between them there is a stream of consciousness. If we find peace and take refuge in it, while our namarupa 1 will disappear, consciousness will disappear too. And with disappearance of stream the very concept of two shores will disappear. Without river there is no shores.

That's why namarupa is the condition for consciousness and consciousness is the condition for namarupa.

Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Visigoth
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Visigoth »

DooDoot : The word "cessation" in this context means the cessation of ignorance, craving & attachment that is polluting & affecting consciousness. Refer to SN 22.5 & SN 22.53.

Both the reference have been of immense help in understanding.

Can you please suggest how 'cessation' in this context brings about cessation of NamaRupa?

I know there are quite few threads explaining different positions on NamaRupa and I have gone through some of them. But I am interested to know how NamaRupa ceases with Cessation of delight and craving in form, perception etc, meaning cessation of Consciousness?
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am Hi all,

I am unable to make sense of the following, among many other things, of Pattica Samuppada.

"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"

Now for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
But, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.

How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness? What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?

I am sorry if the same question, albeit in different form, has been asked earlier. You may directly provide the link thereto, if so.

With Metta
It much depends on which interpretation of dependent origination you prefer. But in reverse mode, the DO suttas do appear to describe a literal cessation of the nidanas, including consciousness.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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retrofuturist
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Very well then, Visigoth my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am I am sorry if the same question, albeit in different form, has been asked earlier. You may directly provide the link thereto, if so.
Previous topic: Bundles of reeds simile.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Zom »

How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness? What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?
It's pretty straightforward. It just ceases to exist: consciousness, feelings, perceptions, body-mind, everything you used to think of as "Me" and "Mine" and "My Self".
Last edited by Zom on Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:29 am It's pretty straightforward. It just ceases to exist … everything you used to think of as "Me" and "Mine" and "My Self".
Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta wrote:"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...both does & does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"...neither does nor does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."
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DooDoot
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

Visigoth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:32 pm Can you please suggest how 'cessation' in this context brings about cessation of NamaRupa?
The same meaning. Regards :)
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pegembara
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by pegembara »

Visigoth wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:24 am Hi all,

I am unable to make sense of the following, among many other things, of Pattica Samuppada.

"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"

Now for someone who is taking this consciousnees to be independent and life-principle, it would mean death of individual.
But, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.

How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness? What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?

I am sorry if the same question, albeit in different form, has been asked earlier. You may directly provide the link thereto, if so.

With Metta
Maybe not directly addressing your question but ...

Consciousness always has an object ie. sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, mental objects (thoughts, memories, concepts etc) There being 6 kinds of consciousness or vinnana.

One could say that there isn't an independent consciousness as such. Without the six sense objects, there is no consciousness.
Consciousness is a dependently arising phenomena - not an entity or self as such.
But as mentioned in some post above, "consciousness" is not equal to the life principle.
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Pondera »

There is mind. There is mind-object. There is mind-consciousness.

Take away mind-consciousness and there is still mind and mind object. However there is no contact.

Where there is no contact there is “cessation of perception and feeling”.

Buddha also taught consciousness is everywhere - surrounding and permeating everything.

Letting go of sense consciousness leaves you to be an empty husk - in a good way. Translucent. Transparent. Invisible. Unbelievably Powerful. In touch with Infinite Potential. A mind-made body. No tactile sense. All the atomic bonds have become unbound. You are free!
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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