cessation of consciousness

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Visigoth
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Visigoth »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:54 am
Visigoth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:32 pm Can you please suggest how 'cessation' in this context brings about cessation of NamaRupa?
The same meaning. Regards :)

Elaboration on 'the same meaning' is requested.

I meant to say, for 'cessation of consciousness' suttas referred to by you gave a explicit meaning of what it is i.e. cessation of delight and craving.

In similar way, what is cessation of 'NamaRupa'? What actually ceases?

When Nama is defined as: Contact, Feeling, Perception, Intention and Attention (activities of mind, - I wonder if it can be considered as Mano Sankara?) and Rupa is defined as: 4 great Primaries and their derivatives (something out there giving rise to respective sense consciousness, sometimes translated as materiality - I wonder if it can be understood as Kantian Neumona?)

Notwithstanding the wondering in parenthesis, I would be more than happy to receive opinions on them though, but limiting myself to immediate question, how to understand cessation of NamaRupa when NamaRupa is defined as stated?

What actually ceases when NamaRupa ceases?
2600htz
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Yeah, in Buddhist there are a couple of different context for "cessation of consciousness".

1)in dependent origination one interpretation is that without ignorance there is the "cessation of defiled consciousness".

2) This means that someone without ignorance, like the Buddha, still obviously had consciousness arising, just that not with ignorance as condition.

3)in the context of cessation of perception and feeling state is not just a cessation of Defiled consciousness, but of every kind of consciousness. Same with parinibbana (death of an arahant)

4)In mundane context, getting general anesthesia, is a "cessation of consciousness", same at certain stages of sleep, and in death.

Regards.
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Zom
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Zom »

1)in dependent origination one interpretation is that without ignorance there is the "cessation of defiled consciousness".
This is a wrong interpretation.
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cappuccino
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by cappuccino »

Kevatta Sutta wrote:Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'
:quote:
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Visigoth
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Visigoth »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:54 am
Visigoth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:32 pm Can you please suggest how 'cessation' in this context brings about cessation of NamaRupa?
The same meaning. Regards :)
When we say NamaRupa ceases it would mean Nama=contact, feeling, perception, attention, intention (all mental activities) and Rupa=4 great primaries and their derivatives would cease.

What does it mean to have them ceased?

What actually ceases when we say NamaRupa ceases?
Last edited by Visigoth on Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

Visigoth wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:46 pm When Nama is defined as: Contact, Feeling, Perception, Intention and Attention (activities of mind, - I wonder if it can be considered as Mano Sankara?) and Rupa is defined as: 4 great Primaries and their derivatives (something out there giving rise to respective sense consciousness, sometimes translated as materiality - I wonder if it can be understood as Kantian Neumona?) What actually ceases when NamaRupa ceases?
Rupa is not taught about so to be regarded as a perception or dependent upon perception (even though knowing it obviously is). For example, refer to the description of the four elements in MN 62, MN 140, etc.

Manosankhara is mental kamma therefore intention & attention appear certainly types of manosankhara.

Perception, intention, contact & attention are described in the suttas of being of two types: wrong/perverted/inappropriate & right/appropriate.

Therefore, the cessation of nama-rupa is when the rupa is not stressed by ignorance & craving and when the nama is not influenced by ignorance & craving.

For example, SN 12.58 refers to the "entering into play/preoccupation" or "descent" of nama-rupa due to craving:
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent (avakkanti) of nama-and-rupa. With name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases come to be…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
If we struggle to understand the above quote, simply refer to this post about sexual lust. In this post, the poster was happily meditating without a care in the world. Then, suddenly lust came into play/preoccupation and then suddenly the poster was caught up in all types of thoughts & issues about body & mind due to lust. This is the meaning of "descent". "Descent" does not mean the body & mind descend from outerspace or from a spaceship :alien: . It means body & mind "enter" into the sphere of conscious preoccupation.

Please recall the physical body itself is something afflicted by the mind. Therefore, the suttas teach the following, for example, about bodily & mental suffering:
When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/bodhi
Again, refer to SN 22.81 about contact polluted by ignorance:
...assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, as SN 22.5 explains, the words "arising" & "cessation" mean the arising & cessation of ignorance & craving.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:53 am, edited 11 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

Zom wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:34 pm
1)in dependent origination one interpretation is that without ignorance there is the "cessation of defiled consciousness".
This is a wrong interpretation.
No. It is literally supported by many suttas, such as SN 22.53:
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pondera
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Pondera »

Visigoth wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:39 pm
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:54 am
Visigoth wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:32 pm Can you please suggest how 'cessation' in this context brings about cessation of NamaRupa?
The same meaning. Regards :)
When we say NamaRupa ceases it would mean Nama=contact, feeling, perception, attention, intention (all mental activities) and Rupa=4 great primaries and their derivatives would cease.

What does it mean to have them ceased?

What actually ceases when we say NamaRupa ceases?
Your perception and feeling of nama rupa cease.

Rupa continues. It is not destroyed. It is there - changing always.

Nama is gone. When you can no longer register the sense impressions of your surroundings - then there is no “television” “building” “noise of people across the street”.

Which, incidentally, is why it is all still there when you emerge from the attainment. Nama restarts the moment that rupa is felt and perceived.
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Zom
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Zom »

No. It is literally supported by many suttas, such as SN 22.53:
This sutta doesn't explain DO consciousness link. It just explains why consciousness can become clean.
Pulsar
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Pulsar »

Visigoth wrote 
"From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form"
Buddha is referring to consciousness soteriologically, not what the neurobiologist considers as consciousness. He is not even talking of consciousness as other Indian religions did.
To understand Buddha's teaching regarding consciousness one must first understand Paticca Samuppada. It appears you are familiar with it, even though it is really not a beginner's topic, but the question belongs in the beginner's forum, since a smart beginner should ask this.
You wrote
Now for someone who is taking this consciousness to be independent and life-principle, it would mean the death of individual.
This is true. You wrote further
But, The Buddha has described consciousness, in many Suttas, as to be reckoned with the thing it depends on, i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body (touch)-consciousness and mind-consciousness.
Yes this is true, but buyer beware, in other suttas Buddha also said
underlying tendency is an essential condition,
for subject under discussion.

You wrote
How should one understand this cessation of consciousness? Does that cessation mean that one will be devoid of any of such sensory consciousness?
Cessation does not mean loss of  eyesight, hearing etc. Once the underlying tendencies are removed senses still work fine. But the things seen and heard do not lead to issue of kammic consciousness, or its maintenance. Arahant is very much conscious of all that goes on around him, more so than us, since he has no distractions.
You wrote
What could of existing you may conceive devoid of consciousness?
It depends on what you mean by existence? If you mean existence to be "being" then the Arahant does not fall into that category.
The kind of existence that an Arahant features, is something I can only dream of, a life free of burden.
S/he has laid the down the burden of existence, meaning the burden of kammic consciousness.
This is a kind of question that every smart beginner should ask.  Right answer however involves a pretty sophisticated understanding of what the Buddha taught.
Some Buddhist think of consciousness as the consciousness of other Indian religions. But it is not.
Once they get the beginning wrong, the rest tend to be misinterpreted. 
Dearest Visigoth I am not sure whether you are a beginner. You don't appear to be, you already have some knowledge of Paticca samuppada.
But for a beginner your question is brilliant. Regarding your quandary on Nama-and-Rupa, I cannot explain it in a short answer. However over time, I have dealt with it in my jhana thread. But i am not sure whether a beginner will get the hang of it. You are welcome to ask me questions on that thread, you don't come across as a beginner.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p588559
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:34 pm
1)in dependent origination one interpretation is that without ignorance there is the "cessation of defiled consciousness".
This is a wrong interpretation.
What's your view on the correct interpretation of consciousness ceasing in DO?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Pulsar
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
For example, SN 12.58 refers to the "entering into play/preoccupation" or "descent" of nama-rupa due to craving:
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating gratification in things that can fetter, there is a descent (avakkanti) of nama-and-rupa. With name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases come to be…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
If we struggle to understand the above quote, simply refer to this post about sexual lust. In this post, the poster was happily meditating without a care in the world. Then, suddenly lust came into play/preoccupation and then suddenly the poster was caught up in all types of thoughts & issues about body & mind due to lust. This is the meaning of "descent". "Descent" does not mean the body & mind descend from outerspace or from a spaceship :alien: . It means body & mind "enter" into the sphere of conscious preoccupation.
Dearest DooDoot I love how you say this...
yes descent definitely is not from a spaceship, perhaps the spaceship of kamma formation. Your example is striking, I love the sense of humor. Folks tend to think of "descent" as into the womb literally, without realizing that a womb also can be the location of constant conceiving of
ideas, of wholesome and unwholesome.
However.... this thought of yours
Therefore, the cessation of nama-rupa is when the rupa is not stressed by ignorance & craving and when the nama is not influenced by ignorance & craving.
I prefer to think of cessation of Nama-Rupa as when Rupa fails to appear at all in the meditator.
In 4th jhana Rupa disappears entirely, hence Nama flounders unable to make a kammic consciousness, Nama-and Rupa cycling ends in 4th jhana temporarily. In this scenario awakening factors are in full swing.
In the Arahant this process of Nama-and Rupa cycling with vinnana, is over with, there is no dependent arising of suffering, only dependent liberation.
This is a bit heavy for the beginner, but I wanted to correct the impression you give OP.
With Love :candle:
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by pegembara »

What is the difference if any between the cessation of consciousness and the release of consciousness?
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bearing in mind that for the arahant, the feeling has not ceased.
'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

"The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Zom »

What's your view on the correct interpretation of consciousness ceasing in DO?
It is very simple. Ignorance and formations refer to the present life where enlightenment is attained. When formations are no more, they don't generate new consciousness and nama-rupa for the next life. No more next life, consciousness ceases upon arahant's death and doesn't continue into a new one. This is what DO is all about, and this is how this link "with the cessation of formations consciousness ceases" is to be understood.
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cappuccino
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by cappuccino »

Zom wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:52 am
What's your view on the correct interpretation of consciousness ceasing in DO?
It is very simple.
If only it were
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