cessation of consciousness

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pegembara
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by pegembara »

Zom wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:52 am
What's your view on the correct interpretation of consciousness ceasing in DO?
It is very simple. Ignorance and formations refer to the present life where enlightenment is attained. When formations are no more, they don't generate new consciousness and nama-rupa for the next life. No more next life, consciousness ceases upon arahant's death and doesn't continue into a new one. This is what DO is all about, and this is how this link "with the cessation of formations consciousness ceases" is to be understood.
Are you saying that the dependent cessation(nirodha) sequence only happens once when the arahant dies while the dependent origination happens many times?
What about the time of full enlightenment?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Zom
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Zom »

What about the time of full enlightenment?
D.O. has nothing to do with this moment, it is not about that at all.
Are you saying that the dependent cessation(nirodha) sequence only happens once when the arahant dies while the dependent origination happens many times?
Sequence is there to show the grand scheme itself, on the largest scale. Many have problems with understanding it because they try to apply momentariness to each chain link, which is a mistake. The key to correct understanding lies in the last chain link: birth-->aging/death/sufferings. How a sane person would understand that? If you are not born, you don't have to live a life full of different sufferings (pain, lamentation, etc as formula says) and ending with unpleasant effects like aging and death. Just that simple. Not a Newton's binome. Same goes for other links as well. When arahant becomes an arahant, ignorance is no more. Without ignorance new kamma isn't generated. Without kammic powers consiousness doesn't keep reproducing itself upon death, when khandhas undergo dissolving process. When consciousness is no more, psychicо-physical organism (brand new khandhas) can't appear to experience sense spheres. If such experience doesn't exist, no contact or feeling can ever be born. Without feelings craving can't appear or exist as well. Without craving there can't be such phenomenon as clinging. Without clinging the whole existence is impossible, because it is a basic samsaric engine/driver. When you don't exist, you simply can't be born. If you can't be born, there is no way you can somehow experience sufferings, aging and death. This is what it is all about and that's how it should be understood.

That being said, that doesn't mean that we can't scrutinize some of the links in momentary perspective (like Sariputta does in MN 28). But that works only locally, not globally, just to show that causation principle works everywhere on all levels of the universe. The grand 12-link scheme doesn't describe that.
Last edited by Zom on Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Visigoth
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Re: cessation of consciousness

Post by Visigoth »

DooDoot wrote
[/quote]
Therefore, as SN 22.5 explains, the words "arising" & "cessation" mean the arising & cessation of ignorance & craving.
[/quote]

In SN22.5, the word used for cessation is not 'Nirodha' but 'Atthangamo'. Cursory search on it says both are similar in a sense Atthangamo means setting down, from Sanskrit अस्त/Ast.

So in keeping with the Suttas you referred, origin of PanchupadanaKhandha is in approving/enjoying, welcoming, fastening to/clinging to form, feeling, perception, fabrication & consciousness. And conversely is the cessation of them.

Am I getting right what you're trying to explain?

Regards
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