What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
Padmist
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:10 am

What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by Padmist »

  • Is it arahantship?
  • Is it above arahantship?
  • Is it a place after death? Where is it?
  • Is it a level of mental state that transcend the material / mental experience / plane / existence?
  • Is it just a mental state? Ala, Stephen Batchelor who said "I define it as the Buddha defines it...'freedom from the poisons of greed, hatred, and confusion,'"
I ask because you'll come across some people who claims they are already enlightened or had nirvana experience. (Noah Smith, Daniel Ingram) That or some people would share a Youtube video of scientists explaining some mental states. If I say "No", I can't really describe that it is, so what is it really? How would you describe it?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Padmist wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 pm ...
It is an unconditioned element which the mind "touches" or cognises once one fully understands dependent origination and so also the 3 marks of anicca, dukkha and anatta thus letting go. Within that experience there is no experience of conditioned dhammas. This can be experienced in life (nibbāna with fuel remaining). At death, for the Buddha and Arahants, all conditioned dhammas cease. This is final nibbāna (nibbāna with no fuel remaining) After that, well:
"Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
Posts: 21234
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by SarathW »

Unfortunately many of us can not speak from experience but define it according to Sutta.

Is it arahantship? Yes. It is a title given to the person who attain (realise) Nibbana.
Is it above arahantship?
Is it a place after death? No as per Sutta Where is it? There is no birth to Nibbana. No more birth.
Is it a level of mental state that transcend the material / mental experience / plane / existence? It appears a transcen state for living Arahants but not for one reach Parinibbana.
Is it just a mental state? Some Buddhist sects believe so. (Mahayana, Dhamma Yutta Nikaya)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by Ceisiwr »

“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Padmist
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:10 am

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by Padmist »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:30 pm
Padmist wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 pm ...
It is an unconditioned element which the mind "touches" or cognises once one fully understands dependent origination and so also the 3 marks of anicca, dukkha and anatta thus letting go. Within that experience there is no experience of conditioned dhammas. This can be experienced in life (nibbāna with fuel remaining). At death, for the Buddha and Arahants, all conditioned dhammas cease. This is final nibbāna (nibbāna with no fuel remaining) After that, well:
"Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification."
I think the answer is there but unfortunately, I understand none of it. :thinking:

What does "unconditioned element" mean? What do other traditions call it? (substrate? stream consciousness? subtle mind?)

What does "there is no experience of conditioned dhammas" mean?

"This can be experienced in life" - By anybody, even non-Buddhists?

As for the long quote, how do you understand it? Everything-Nothing? How does this make any sense?

Thank you.
BVira
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:29 am

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by BVira »

pegembara
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by pegembara »

"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way, I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Post by sunnat »

Whenever one merely knows 'this is' in a(ny) moment, conditioned dhammas manifest and disappear without conditioning preceding dhammas. A time then comes when there are no more conditioned dhammas and then there is the emptiness of nibbana. Continuous equanimous awareness of the continual change of all conditioned dhammas, all kamma resultants, sankharas, means no further kamma seeds are being planted and in time nibbana is experienced.
SteRo
Posts: 5950
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by SteRo »

Padmist wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 pm I ask because you'll come across some people who claims they are already enlightened or had nirvana experience. (Noah Smith, Daniel Ingram) That or some people would share a Youtube video of scientists explaining some mental states. If I say "No", I can't really describe that it is, so what is it really? How would you describe it?
There might be many different philosophical and/or psychological perspectives from which one might elaborate about it. But of course you should look into theravada doctrine (suttas, abhidhamma) because 'nibbana' is a term that is kind of 'registered' by theravada tradition.
Personally I would refer to 'nibbana' avoiding technical/doctrinal terms as 'the end of all unease and felt conflict'.
Last edited by SteRo on Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by mjaviem »

To think about death is terrifying, then you learn about rebirth and it brings some comfort to your mind... Then you get uneasy thinking there's really no much connection between those lives other than kamma and perhaps some personality traits, it's not really about you. When you learn that all experience is suffering but there is an escape you are interested about reaching that Nibbana state. And then you learn that it's an escape from existence which doesn't mean non-existence either (nor both at the same time, nor none of them at the same time) and that there is no you not not-you (nor both..., nor none...). That existence and the concept of you doesn't apply makes it really puzzling and makes you seek something to trust and have faith into, like the Buddha, or his teachings, or virtuous trustworthy monks and noble people to learn from and be guided by, or all of it.

I think Nibbana can only be believed to be true and eventually experienced by oneself to really know what it is. Words explaining exactly what it is, even if accurate, are of not much use.

P.S.: I'm talking of my experience and thoughts, I don't mean to offend or mislead anybody.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by coconut »

Padmist wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 pm
  • Is it arahantship?
  • Is it above arahantship?
  • Is it a place after death? Where is it?
  • Is it a level of mental state that transcend the material / mental experience / plane / existence?
  • Is it just a mental state? Ala, Stephen Batchelor who said "I define it as the Buddha defines it...'freedom from the poisons of greed, hatred, and confusion,'"
I ask because you'll come across some people who claims they are already enlightened or had nirvana experience. (Noah Smith, Daniel Ingram) That or some people would share a Youtube video of scientists explaining some mental states. If I say "No", I can't really describe that it is, so what is it really? How would you describe it?
The permanent cessation of suffering, which is also called Arahantship.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by ToVincent »

As for AN 4.173 / SA 249

To the questions:
With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six fields of sensory transference (contact), is it the case that — there is anything else?” — "not anything else?”— "both is & is not anything else?”

The answers are:

However far the six fields of sensory transference go, that is how far the visible (developed) world (pra-pañca) goes. However far the development of the visible world goes, that is how far the six fields of sensory transference go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six fields of sensory transference , there comes to be the stopping, the end of the visible world .
AN 4.73

After the extinction of the six sense-spheres of transference (contact,) and the fading away of desire, after cessation, after ending, there is fading away of all meaningless argument and the attaining of nirvāṇa, then this is the teaching of the Buddha.”
SA 249

Namely, this means that beyond the six sense-spheres of transference (contact) (phas­sāyata­nā­na) — that is to say, beyond any internal sensory experience — there is nothing left pertaining to this world* — no vision, no smell, no taste,... no intellection (with the mano).
Everything becomes the domain of the citta - with no more "mine" = nibbāna with remnant.
Then with the end of the citta - and the end of the "I" - comes nibbāna without remnant.

Note that in no way, does the mano experience nibbāna.

-----

* The world:
The eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition.
The ear … The mano … Whatever feeling arises with mano-contact as condition.

.
.
Last edited by ToVincent on Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
sphairos
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by sphairos »

It's when you reach understanding of True Reality and completely eradicate defects (greed, anger, delusion).
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by confusedlayman »

Padmist wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 pm
  • Is it arahantship?
  • Is it above arahantship?
  • Is it a place after death? Where is it?
  • Is it a level of mental state that transcend the material / mental experience / plane / existence?
  • Is it just a mental state? Ala, Stephen Batchelor who said "I define it as the Buddha defines it...'freedom from the poisons of greed, hatred, and confusion,'"
I ask because you'll come across some people who claims they are already enlightened or had nirvana experience. (Noah Smith, Daniel Ingram) That or some people would share a Youtube video of scientists explaining some mental states. If I say "No", I can't really describe that it is, so what is it really? How would you describe it?
understanding dependent origination resulting in absence of greed hatred and delusion may be called as nibbana
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: What is Nirvana/Enlightenment really?

Post by cappuccino »

you know what shade feels like


especially in comparison to the heat


Nirvana is that difference
Post Reply