Is sense restraint the key to arahantship?

[Ryan95227]

Over the years, many people have recommended to me that the middle way for laymen is moderation in sensual pleasure. For example, 1 hour of movie watching after a hard day of work or meditation is seemingly ok or occasionally delighting oneself in some treats seems to be ok since you're not "excessively" indulging in them. However, what I found is that the mind "depends" on these sensual pleasures to arouse happiness especially after an unpleasant experience (working/interacting with clients/projects). It didn't really matter that I was indulging in these sensual pleasures for a very short time. The mind "craved" for these sensual pleasures all the time in order to avoid the unpleasantness constantly arising. The mind is distracted for most of the day by a busy work at a job and when one is about to be aware of unpleasantness after work, intense craving for pleasure shows up. When I got tired of this and actively restrained my senses, even more unpleasantness arose and there I noticed how much suffering there was in the sensual pleasures. The mind constantly wanted to avoid unpleasantness by indulging in sensual pleasures which led to a lapse in mindfulness, meditation, precepts, dhamma study, and etc. I realized how destructive it was letting my senses dictate my actions. It basically destroyed any dicipline/motivation/energy I had to practice the dhamma because all the mind wanted to do was to avoid that DAMN unpleasantness and not engage in some dhamma study.. I'm now thinking, especially after watching hillside hermitage video on sensual pleasure, that in order to reach anagami or higher, you really need to COMPLETELY restrain your senses and just be aware of unpleasantness each time it arrives. You basically have to never give in to your senses. At this point I realized why so many monks have emphasized the need for ordination/long retreats to reach anagami stage or higher. You must be constantly "mindful" of your "attachment" to the sense objects in response to unpleasantness. If you truly do so most of your day will be taken up by literally just being mindful and meditating because engaging in any actions means that you will be succumbing to the pleasurable sense objects. After a long period of doing this without missing a beat, it seems like your mind will start to get "purified" and your level of attachment to sense objects will subsede drastically. With your mindfulness, dicipline, and purity at maturity, most of noble 8 fold path will have already been fulfilled because you automatically engage in right speech, right livelihood, right effort, right action, right right mindfulness, and etc which are all moderated by your restraint. Once this is done, the condition for jhana seems to open up and after that you go through your usual 4 jhana stages to reach arahantship.

Does anyone agree with the idea that sense restraint is the single most important practice for ultimate liberation? It always seems to start with us not being able to restrain our senses because we want to avoid the unpleasantness. I wasn't aware that something so basic as browsing some gaming forum or eating a chocolate was so destructive.

[JohnK]

...The mind "craved" for these sensual pleasures all the time in order to avoid the unpleasantness constantly arising. The mind is distracted for most of the day by a busy work at a job and when one is about to be aware of unpleasantness after work, intense craving for pleasure shows up...
Does anyone agree with the idea that sense restraint is the single most important practice for ultimate liberation? It always seems to start with us not being able to restrain our senses because we want to avoid the unpleasantness.

A couple of thoughts on this.
If one merely restrains the senses, one has not understood the cause of the reported unpleasantness (dukkha) being avoided by the sense indulgence. Following the tasks associated with the Four Noble Truths, understanding dukkha is key. Not understanding dukkha = ignornace; ignorance is one of the last fetters to be cut for arahantship. Sense desire is cut previously.

[Coëmgenu]

Sense restraint IMO is one of the most important lessons the Buddha taught, and that the mind is a "sense" here is very important.

[mjaviem]

... what I found is that the mind "depends" on these sensual pleasures to arouse happiness especially after an unpleasant experience (working/interacting with clients/projects). It didn't really matter that I was indulging in these sensual pleasures for a very short time. The mind "craved" for these sensual pleasures all the time in order to avoid the unpleasantness constantly arising...

Yes, you can't go chasing pleasures and escaping pain. This is never ending. You better go after peace.

... I noticed how much suffering there was in the sensual pleasures...

I think the suffering is in your craving for sensual pleasure, not the sensual pleasures per se. The suffering is in wanting things to be different.

... us not being able to restrain our senses...

Sense restrain is being content with little.

[SarathW]

In Noble Eightfold Path there are three main elements.
Sila, Samadhi and Panna.
Sense restraint covers only the Sila aspect of the three.
However, if you have listened to Buddha Dhamma from a Kalyanamitta, the sense strain is the starting point.
In that case, Sila will gradually move you towards Nibbana by completing Samadhi and Panna.
So sense restraint is a major step you have taken.

[pegembara]

Over the years, many people have recommended to me that the middle way for laymen is moderation in sensual pleasure. For example, 1 hour of movie watching after a hard day of work or meditation is seemingly ok or occasionally delighting oneself in some treats seems to be ok since you're not "excessively" indulging in them. However, what I found is that the mind "depends" on these sensual pleasures to arouse happiness especially after an unpleasant experience (working/interacting with clients/projects). It didn't really matter that I was indulging in these sensual pleasures for a very short time. The mind "craved" for these sensual pleasures all the time in order to avoid the unpleasantness constantly arising. The mind is distracted for most of the day by a busy work at a job and when one is about to be aware of unpleasantness after work, intense craving for pleasure shows up. When I got tired of this and actively restrained my senses, even more unpleasantness arose and there I noticed how much suffering there was in the sensual pleasures. The mind constantly wanted to avoid unpleasantness by indulging in sensual pleasures which led to a lapse in mindfulness, meditation, precepts, dhamma study, and etc. I realized how destructive it was letting my senses dictate my actions. It basically destroyed any dicipline/motivation/energy I had to practice the dhamma because all the mind wanted to do was to avoid that DAMN unpleasantness and not engage in some dhamma study.. I'm now thinking, especially after watching hillside hermitage video on sensual pleasure, that in order to reach anagami or higher, you really need to COMPLETELY restrain your senses and just be aware of unpleasantness each time it arrives. You basically have to never give in to your senses. At this point I realized why so many monks have emphasized the need for ordination/long retreats to reach anagami stage or higher. You must be constantly "mindful" of your "attachment" to the sense objects in response to unpleasantness. If you truly do so most of your day will be taken up by literally just being mindful and meditating because engaging in any actions means that you will be succumbing to the pleasurable sense objects. After a long period of doing this without missing a beat, it seems like your mind will start to get "purified" and your level of attachment to sense objects will subsede drastically. With your mindfulness, dicipline, and purity at maturity, most of noble 8 fold path will have already been fulfilled because you automatically engage in right speech, right livelihood, right effort, right action, right right mindfulness, and etc which are all moderated by your restraint. Once this is done, the condition for jhana seems to open up and after that you go through your usual 4 jhana stages to reach arahantship.

Does anyone agree with the idea that sense restraint is the single most important practice for ultimate liberation? It always seems to start with us not being able to restrain our senses because we want to avoid the unpleasantness. I wasn't aware that something so basic as browsing some gaming forum or eating a chocolate was so destructive.

To me, the key is one's reaction to feelings which leads to liking/disliking ie. craving. The mind is led by feelings through craving as it were.
The arahant still has feelings but no more craving(likes/dislikes). So sense restraint is most definitely a key, starting with the five, eight precepts and progressing on from there.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html

"One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

[Alino]

Saaadhu!

My Venerable Teachers said that the point of restreint in greed hatred and delusion is to be fully aware and open to them, in order to learn about their causes and conditions and let the mind be desenchanted by them, seeing danger and poison in them. So restraint becomes effortless.

More open we are to our experiences, pleasant or unpleasant, more clear, deep and wise our contemplation is, more desenchanted and free our mind become.

Freedom is a source of happiness and joy for the mind. Because joy is a quality of light mind, and happiness in a quality of stable mind. When the mind have access to hapiness and joy born from seclusion - it will be even much more difficult for him to engage in coarse, violent dirty, things of sensual sphere.

[DooDoot]

Sense restraint covers only the Sila aspect of the three.

Sense restraint appears to cover the Samadhi aspect of the three.

[DooDoot]

However, what I found is that the mind "depends" on these sensual pleasures to arouse happiness especially after an unpleasant experience (working/interacting with clients/projects). The mind is distracted for most of the day by a busy work at a job and when one is about to be aware of unpleasantness after work, intense craving for pleasure shows up.

Possibly u can do some physical exercise after work.

[DooDoot]

Does anyone agree with the idea that sense restraint is the single most important practice for ultimate liberation? It always seems to start with us not being able to restrain our senses because we want to avoid the unpleasantness. I wasn't aware that something so basic as browsing some gaming forum or eating a chocolate was so destructive.

Right view is the most important dhamma for the path to liberation. Without right view, it will be difficult to restrain the senses. For example, if there is not right view about the harm & danger chocolate then it will be difficult to restrain the mind when chocolate is seen or offered.

[Ryan95227]

Does anyone agree with the idea that sense restraint is the single most important practice for ultimate liberation? It always seems to start with us not being able to restrain our senses because we want to avoid the unpleasantness. I wasn't aware that something so basic as browsing some gaming forum or eating a chocolate was so destructive.

Right view is the most important dhamma for the path to liberation. Without right view, it will be difficult to restrain the senses. For example, if there is not right view about the harm & danger chocolate then it will be difficult to restrain the mind when chocolate is seen or offered.

You do have to start somewhere to have right view. I reckon that restraining your senses reveals just how much suffering there is in the sensual pleasures and how much you depend on these to make you "artificially" happy. Seems like suffering is the key motivator in practicing dhamma

[DooDoot]

Seems like suffering is the key motivator in practicing dhamma

Yes, understand suffering is part of right view.

And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the origin of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called right view.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/bodhi

Again, wise reflection/careful attention (about the Teachings) and mindfulness & clear-comprehension (which is a factor of wisdom) are required for sense-restraint, as follows:

Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi

[2600htz]

Hi:

Man you are right, restrain is a core buddhist teaching, but it sound like you have a tendency for mortification.

What is a tendency for mortification? Its when someone has a tendency for being hard on themselves, a tendency to want to avoid bad things by means of force, a tendency to focus on the unpleasantness, and being high on effort. You could add difficulty staying with your object of meditation because of interest on what is pulling you out. Or even choosing unpleasant objects of meditation.

Right restrain is not just restrain. It involves coming back to a wholesome object.

Hindrances actually increase if you start to drop everything that gives you pleasure and you keep your attention on the unpleasant.


Regards.

[JohnK]

...Seems like suffering is the key motivator in practicing dhamma

It could also be said that a desire for happiness (a more reliable happiness) is the key motivator.

Suffering as a translation of the Pali word dukkha is on the far end of a continuum that runs from dissatisfaction on one end to suffering on the other. So, one might be dissatisfied (dukkha) with the happiness available through typical worldly endeavors and develop some faith (saddha) in the possibility of an alternative. (Of course, one might be suffering intensely and that could be a motivator, but not necessarily.)
By going from dukkha to saddha, I am leaning on the first steps in "transcendental dependent arising" from the Upanisa Sutta, SN 12:23.
An essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html

[Ryan95227]

Seems like suffering is the key motivator in practicing dhamma

Yes, understand suffering is part of right view.

And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the origin of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called right view.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/bodhi

Again, wise reflection/careful attention (about the Teachings) and mindfulness & clear-comprehension (which is a factor of wisdom) are required for sense-restraint, as follows:

Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi

what is meant by "careful attention" here? Is mindfulness referring to being "observant" about the craving that is arising?