Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

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auto
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:25 am compare to MN 64:
For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’

https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi
Infant doesn't have the notion of identity, because it is a lower fetter,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato wrote:and they don’t truly understand the escape from identity view that has arisen.
uppannāya ca sakkāyadiṭṭhiyā nissaraṇaṁ yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti.
That identity view is reinforced in them, not eliminated: it is a lower fetter.
Tassa sā sakkāyadiṭṭhi thāmagatā appaṭivinītā orambhāgiyaṁ saṁyojanaṁ.
Path(magga) and practice is needed to see and give up lower fetter.
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato wrote:There is a path and a practice for giving up the five lower fetters. It’s not possible to know or see or give up the five lower fetters without relying on that path and that practice.
Yo, ānanda, maggo yā paṭipadā pañcannaṁ orambhāgiyānaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ pahānāya taṁ maggaṁ taṁ paṭipadaṁ anāgamma pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni ñassati vā dakkhati vā pajahissati vāti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Bodhisatta doesn't have lower fetters.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:16 am MN 123 - “I am the foremost of the world. I am chief of the world. I am the best of the world.”

compared to

MN 64 - young tender infant... does not even have the notion ‘identity'
Suttas confirm his childhood jhana prowess, i think it is the multidimensionality, he knew but not really actualized it to that's it
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote: Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
‘abhijānāmi kho panāhaṁ pitu sakkassa kammante sītāya jambucchāyāya nisinno vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharitā.
Could that be the path to awakening?’
Siyā nu kho eso maggo bodhāyā’ti?
Stemming from that memory came the realization:
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, satānusāri viññāṇaṁ ahosi:
‘That is the path to awakening!’
‘eseva maggo bodhāyā’ti.
Red Belly
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Red Belly »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:19 pm I compared MN 123 and MN 64. Both are good, no need to choose one over the other and cherry pick the Suttas.

MN 123 is about the extremely rare being known as a Samma-Sam-Buddha. A Samma-Sam-Buddha comes around only approximately once every 5,000 to 100,000 years. MN 64 is about an ordinary infant.

The term "I" is a conventional label we use in everyday conversation. It does not necessarily mean that anyone who uses the term "I" believes in a permanent self, atta / atman.
This is an excellent reply.
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:19 pm
MN 123 is about the extremely rare being known as a Samma-Sam-Buddha. A Samma-Sam-Buddha comes around only approximately once every 5,000 to 100,000 years.
How did you get the numbers? Cause according to DN 14, there was only 7 Buddhas in 91 aeons. One aeon being like a universe cycle, which is at least more than 13.8 billion years from Big Bang theory.
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DooDoot
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:54 am How did you get the numbers? Cause according to DN 14, there was only 7 Buddhas in 91 aeons. One aeon being like a universe cycle, which is at least more than 13.8 billion years from Big Bang theory.
Do those suttas about past Buddha's ever describe the society they lived in? Did those past Buddha's live in societies such as Northern India, with the same technology, such as carts & knives? Or these past Buddha's live on the planets Venus & Mercury, when these planets were inhabitable by lifeforms? I ask these science based questions to you since you refer to the Big Bang. :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nirodh27
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by nirodh27 »

A poll about this would be very interesting too. "Do you think that the Buddha as soon it was born walked seven steps and declared himself "I am the chief of the world!"?

Having studied how religions texts (Christian research on the gospels is very revealing, but also the new gospels like the Mormon one is insteresting) have been born, changed, altered can help you having some doubts about those passages and their origin. It is the standard way of doing to add more and more exalted passages to the text to magnify the founder (the evolution of Jesus from a man adopted to be the son of god thanks to his purity of heart to the everlasting son of the father born at the beginning of time, the exalted details of his nativity added in a later gospel and not present in the first gospel) or do little alterations to the message to better penetrate or impress some resistant audiences. It is clear from the Texts that the Buddha carefully crafted his teachings to avoid that the central message and practice was lost, even if he foresaw that changes and corruptions would be made in time.

Buddhist should be the best equipped about those issues, since Nikayas are not considered sacred like the Gospel (the 4 gospel have been chosen by god with many miracles between hundreds and the Quran has been dictated to Mohammad word by word). It should be expected to find those exalting passages and a stance of being skeptical abouth them should be the norm given our current-modern undestanding and experience of the world (an infant misses crucial parts of the brain to talk, it is phisically impossible for a 0 month baby to walk if you have seen one).

Still, believing this things have almost no impact on practice, so it probably doesn't change much anyhow.
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Aloka
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Aloka »

Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth
I think the story of the birth of Buddha and his immediately following footsteps (with lotus flowers springing up as he walked) has probably turned into an intriguing myth over the centuries.

:anjali:
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by asahi »

Buddha admitted He was not a human . Forgotten which sutta .
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Sam Vara »

Hi Everyone,

I've removed a couple of posts from this thread. Nothing much wrong with them, except they had the potential to confuse a person new to Buddhism. Please could people be mindful of the following section of guidance for this "Theravada for Beginners" area?

When responding to questions in this section, please do your best to appropriately and accurately represent the Theravada tradition, keeping your posts free of:

- Personal opinion
- The perspectives of other religions or Buddhist traditions
- Derision of alternative views
- Irrelevancies and idle chatter

When it comes to questions seeking clarification on contentious issues we are looking for responses that are balanced and present alternative points of view objectively.
Thanks! :anjali:
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by confusedlayman »

Aloka wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:41 am
Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth
I think the story of the birth of Buddha and his immediately following footsteps (with lotus flowers springing up as he walked) has probably turned into an intriguing myth over the centuries.

:anjali:
I think they might be true
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by DNS »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:54 am
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:19 pm
MN 123 is about the extremely rare being known as a Samma-Sam-Buddha. A Samma-Sam-Buddha comes around only approximately once every 5,000 to 100,000 years.
How did you get the numbers? Cause according to DN 14, there was only 7 Buddhas in 91 aeons. One aeon being like a universe cycle, which is at least more than 13.8 billion years from Big Bang theory.
The Commentaries report about 5,000 years from Gotama Dispensation to the upcoming Metteyya Dispensation, in about another 2500 years. I suppose the time frame could be much more between other Buddhas.
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by bodom »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:19 pm The term "I" is a conventional label we use in everyday conversation. It does not necessarily mean that anyone who uses the term "I" believes in a permanent self, atta / atman.
Yes I never understood some on here who attack people for using conventional speech like "I"or "Me". I mean how else are supposed to communicate? Even the Buddha talked like this and used conventions to communicate his ideas.
Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Tathāgata uses without misapprehending them.’

DN 9
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Ceisiwr »

bodom wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:37 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:19 pm The term "I" is a conventional label we use in everyday conversation. It does not necessarily mean that anyone who uses the term "I" believes in a permanent self, atta / atman.
Yes I never understood some on here who attack people for using conventional speech like "I"or "Me". I mean how else are supposed to communicate? Even the Buddha talked like this and used conventions to communicate his ideas.
Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Tathāgata uses without misapprehending them.’

DN 9
:anjali:
It’s either due to a lack of mature understanding or it’s a cheap way of not addressing the other person’s argument. It’s just dismissal in that case, nothing more.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Rambutan »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:16 am
asahi wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:59 am What do you wish me to compare ?
MN 123 - “I am the foremost of the world. I am chief of the world. I am the best of the world.”

compared to

MN 64 - young tender infant... does not even have the notion ‘identity'
No sense of personal identity is required.
As Joseph Campbell points out in The Power Of Myth
, all babies demand attention. Every new born baby says “I am the most important thing right now!” which is why they cry.

As for walking and lotuses springing up in his foot prints,
If this is to be taken literally, then there are specific reasons for it to be taken literally, which is to accommodate the capacity of the listener to grasp the profound meaning of the Buddha appearing in this world.
If taking that literally is not required, then don’t.
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DooDoot
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by DooDoot »

Rambutan wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:45 pm
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:16 am MN 64 - young tender infant... does not even have the notion ‘identity'
Every new born baby says “I am the most important thing right now!” which is why they cry.
So you believe in Joseph Campbell rather than MN 64,the observations of modern science and the observations of every parent. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Rambutan
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Re: Did Buddha walked 7 steps immediately after birth

Post by Rambutan »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:11 pm
Rambutan wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:45 pm
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:16 am MN 64 - young tender infant... does not even have the notion ‘identity'
Every new born baby says “I am the most important thing right now!” which is why they cry.
So you believe in Joseph Campbell rather than MN 64,the observations of modern science and the observations of every parent. :smile:
A baby doesn’t need a “notion” of identity.
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