Definitive Source

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woodsman
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Definitive Source

Post by woodsman »

Is there a definitive source of information regarding the question of what came first, Mahayana or Theravada (don't want to use 'Hina'yana)
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DNS
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by DNS »

No, opinions vary, but in general we could say that Theravada was one of the 18 early Buddhist schools. It developed as we know it today around 250 BCE at the Third Council.

Mahayana, as we know it today goes back to about 100 CE, about 350 years later than Theravada. So in general, people have believed Theravada is the oldest known school that survives today.

But it's more complicated than that. It is said that the Mahāsāṃghika early Buddhist school was the pre-cursor to Mahayana and had what we now call Mahayana teachings in them. The Mahāsāṃghika school goes back to about 280 BCE, as old as Theravada or even older.

And then there were other early Buddhist schools, which went extinct due to invasions on the sub-continent or lost popularity, but who's to say that those schools were not accurate, just because they no longer exist?
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by woodsman »

Oh....that's a pity! :shrug:
woodsman
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by woodsman »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:23 pm No, opinions vary, but in general we could say that Theravada was one of the 18 early Buddhist schools. It developed as we know it today around 250 BCE at the Third Council.

Mahayana, as we know it today goes back to about 100 CE, about 350 years later than Theravada. So in general, people have believed Theravada is the oldest known school that survives today.

But it's more complicated than that. It is said that the Mahāsāṃghika early Buddhist school was the pre-cursor to Mahayana and had what we now call Mahayana teachings in them. The Mahāsāṃghika school goes back to about 280 BCE, as old as Theravada or even older.

And then there were other early Buddhist schools, which went extinct due to invasions on the sub-continent or lost popularity, but who's to say that those schools were not accurate, just because they no longer exist?
So how do people make up their minds as to what is valid , in terms of Dhamma, and what is watered down by culture, time and other influences?

_/|\_
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
woodsman wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:10 am So how do people make up their minds as to what is valid , in terms of Dhamma, and what is watered down by culture, time and other influences?
The Suttas are the shared inheritance of all Buddhist traditions. Therefore, if you're after the Buddha's teachings, the Sutta Pitaka (as opposed to any specific sect) is your best bet.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
woodsman
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by woodsman »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:24 am Greetings,
woodsman wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:10 am So how do people make up their minds as to what is valid , in terms of Dhamma, and what is watered down by culture, time and other influences?
The Suttas are the shared inheritance of all Buddhist traditions. Therefore, if you're after the Buddha's teachings, the Sutta Pitaka (as opposed to any specific sect) is your best bet.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks Retro,

So, I hope this isn't contentious, where does the likes of Dogen fit into this? Though not 'Theravadin' his teachings do seem pretty water-tight. Is he considered fringe maybe? Please PM me if this is going to tread on toes!
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by SarathW »

The definitive source is that you practice and realise yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings woodsman,
woodsman wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:46 am So, I hope this isn't contentious, where does the likes of Dogen fit into this? Though not 'Theravadin' his teachings do seem pretty water-tight. Is he considered fringe maybe? Please PM me if this is going to tread on toes!
Well, The Buddha predated Dogen so obviously has nothing to say about him directly. If you like, feel free to start a topic in Connections To Other Paths, bring in "the best of Dogen" and we can talk about whether there's parallels in the Pali Canon or not.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by Gwi »

Theravādå = orthodox.

Old Buddhisme = Theravādå

PURE RELIGION = ORTHODOX

So, "Buddhå Theravādå" mean
"Pure tradition of Buddhism".
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
thomaslaw
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by thomaslaw »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 pm Theravādå = orthodox.

Old Buddhisme = Theravādå

PURE RELIGION = ORTHODOX

So, "Buddhå Theravādå" mean
"Pure tradition of Buddhism".
Theravada is also connected with the Tāmraśāṭīya, also called Tāmraparṇīya.
This tradition was one of the early schools of Buddhism and a branch of the Vibhajyavāda school based in Sri Lanka. It is thought that the Theravāda tradition has its origins in this school. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamrashatiya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamraparni
zan
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by zan »

We do know that the texts used by the Theravada predate the Mahayana sutras. So, whichever school came first, the Theravada use older texts and reject the later ones. If the Mahayana came into existence before the Theravada it makes little difference, as the Mahayana created their sutras long after the death of the Buddha. So we would have two schools, both which come from a line of development from older schools, one uses newer texts that post date the Buddha, the other uses texts that go back to the Buddha.

In other words: Even if the Theravada came into existence at some point slightly later than the Mahayana, it didn't appear out of thin air, nor was it started by random people. It is a school that developed from an older school and so on back to the Buddha, and uses his teachings.

The Mahayana follows the same pattern, but started using their own texts composed anonymously and posthumously attributed to the Buddha.
The Pāli Canon is the most complete Buddhist canon surviving in a classical Indian language, Pāli, which serves as the school's sacred language[2] and lingua franca.[3] In contrast to Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, Theravāda tends to be conservative in matters of doctrine (pariyatti) and monastic discipline (vinaya).[4] One element of this conservatism is the fact that Theravāda rejects the authenticity of the Mahayana sutras (which appeared c. 1st century BCE onwards).[5][6]

Modern Theravāda derives from the Mahāvihāra order, a Sri Lankan branch of the Vibhajjavāda tradition, who are in turn a sect of the Indian Sthavira Nikaya. This tradition began to establish itself in Sri Lanka from the 3rd century BCE onwards. It was in Sri Lanka that the Pāli Canon was written down and the school's commentary literature developed. From Sri Lanka, the Theravāda Mahāvihāra tradition subsequently spread to the rest of Southeast Asia.[7] It is the dominant religion in Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Thailand and is practiced by minorities in India, Bangladesh, China, Nepal, and Vietnam. The diaspora of all of these groups, as well as converts around the world, also embrace and practice Theravāda Buddhism.

-wikipedia page on Theravada
Prayudh Payutto argues that the Pali Canon represents the teachings of the Buddha essentially unchanged apart from minor modifications. He argues that it also incorporates teachings that precede the Buddha, and that the later teachings were memorized by the Buddha's followers while he was still alive. His thesis is based on study of the processes of the first great council, and the methods for memorization used by the monks, which started during the Buddha's lifetime. It's also based on the capability of a few monks, to this day, to memorize the entire canon.[29]

Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali argue that it is likely that much of the Pali Canon dates back to the time period of the Buddha. They base this on many lines of evidence including the technology described in the canon (apart from the obviously later texts), which matches the technology of his day which was in rapid development, that it doesn't include back written prophecies of the great Buddhist ruler King Ashoka (which Mahayana texts often do) suggesting that it predates his time, that in its descriptions of the political geography it presents India at the time of Buddha, which changed soon after his death, that it has no mention of places in South India, which would have been well known to Indians not long after Buddha's death and various other lines of evidence dating the material back to his time.[30]

...

Several scholars of early Buddhism argue that the nucleus of the Buddhist teachings in the Pali Canon may derive from Gautama Buddha himself, but that part of it also was developed after the Buddha by his early followers. Richard Gombrich says that the main preachings of the Buddha (as in the Vinaya and Sutta Pitaka) are coherent and cogent, and must be the work of a single person: the Buddha himself, not a committee of followers after his death.

-wikipedia page on the Pali Canon
Modern Buddhist studies scholars generally hold that these sūtras first began to appear between the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE.[4][5] They continued being composed, compiled and edited until the decline of Buddhism in India. Some of them may have also been composed outside of India, such as in Central Asia and in East Asia.[6]
-wikipedia page on Mahayana Sutras
The times of Gautama's birth and death are uncertain. Most historians in the early 20th century dated his lifetime as c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE.[1][30] Within the Eastern Buddhist tradition of China, Vietnam, Korea and Japan, the traditional date for the death of the Buddha was 949 B.C.[1] According to the Ka-tan system of time calculation in the Kalachakra tradition, Buddha is believed to have died about 833 BCE.[31] More recently his death is dated later, between 411 and 400 BCE, while at a symposium on this question held in 1988,[32][33][34] the majority of those who presented definite opinions gave dates within 20 years either side of 400 BCE for the Buddha's death.[1][35][note 4]
-wikipedia page on Gautama Buddha
Last edited by zan on Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:09 am, edited 6 times in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
un8-
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Re: Definitive Source

Post by un8- »

From an archeological perspective, we know the dates of the suttas due to ashokas pillars and edicts

- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... asoka.html
- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el386.html
Last edited by un8- on Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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