Thinking about the cause of dukka

[dwdanby]

I'm learning about Buddhism, and I listened to a talk the other day about the Four Noble Truths. I understand the first one, in fact it was this teaching that initially attracted me to Buddhism because it is so straightforwardly true.

However the second one has me wondering. The idea that the world's suffering is caused by people craving things - to me, and I've lived quite the long and varied life, to me the cause of the suffering in the world, aside from natural disasters, is selfishness. People think of themselves before others, and are not concerned for others - to me, that is the most basic and fundamental cause of suffering. So when I hear a teaching that says what's necessary to end suffering is to stop wanting things and accept the way things are, it worries me. I spent fifty rather unhappy years as a Christian, it never worked for me, and one of the reasons was that there is a concept of acceptance; "For I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." This is a good idea in many ways, but I have seen it perverted into, for example, telling oppressed people not to complain or try to change anything. How does it work in Buddhism? How does the idea of selflessness, of caring for others both spiritually and materially, fit in? I'm not suggesting Buddhism is selfish, as I've read enough by now to see that I prefer it infinitely to Christianity. Just wondering how this part works.

[pegembara]

I'm learning about Buddhism, and I listened to a talk the other day about the Four Noble Truths. I understand the first one, in fact it was this teaching that initially attracted me to Buddhism because it is so straightforwardly true.

However the second one has me wondering. The idea that the world's suffering is caused by people craving things - to me, and I've lived quite the long and varied life, to me the cause of the suffering in the world, aside from natural disasters, is selfishness. People think of themselves before others, and are not concerned for others - to me, that is the most basic and fundamental cause of suffering. So when I hear a teaching that says what's necessary to end suffering is to stop wanting things and accept the way things are, it worries me. I spent fifty rather unhappy years as a Christian, it never worked for me, and one of the reasons was that there is a concept of acceptance; "For I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." This is a good idea in many ways, but I have seen it perverted into, for example, telling oppressed people not to complain or try to change anything. How does it work in Buddhism? How does the idea of selflessness, of caring for others both spiritually and materially, fit in? I'm not suggesting Buddhism is selfish, as I've read enough by now to see that I prefer it infinitely to Christianity. Just wondering how this part works.

You are right that the main cause is selfishness.
And the cause of this selfishness is craving ie. wanting and not wanting.
You also suffer if you want others to be selfless and altruistic because you wish to control their behaviour.
If only ...

Being contented and just passively allowing things to be isn't the right approach either. Rather the middle way is to make the effort and being contented with the result whatever the outcome.

You plant the seeds and give water/sunshine. If nothing grows, it is because of conditions like poor soil, pollution etc. Or you have no bad habits and yet get cancer. It is because of conditions like genetics, pollution and many things beyond your control.

That is the nature of conditioned things. Nothing is certain and that is what you accept. Not docile passivity.

[DooDoot]

I'm learning about Buddhism, and I listened to a talk the other day about the Four Noble Truths. I understand the first one, in fact it was this teaching that initially attracted me to Buddhism because it is so straightforwardly true.

Hello friend

The 1st noble truth summarises all suffering as attachment. Attachment/grasping/clinging (upadana) means taking possession of things as one's own or as oneself. The 1st noble truth, per scripture, says:

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair are suffering; association with the unloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering stressful, not getting what is wanted is suffering. In summary, the five aggregates subjected to attachment is suffering.

SN 56.11

Therefore, the 1st noble truth explains the mind preoccupied with selfishness is, itself, suffering.

Other scriptures that make this truth clear are as follows:

Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving... Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi

He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair over its change & alteration. This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body and afflicted in mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

However the second one has me wondering. The idea that the world's suffering is caused by people craving things - to me, and I've lived quite the long and varied life, to me the cause of the suffering in the world, aside from natural disasters, is selfishness. People think of themselves before others, and are not concerned for others - to me, that is the most basic and fundamental cause of suffering.

The word "cause" ("hetu") is not found in the 2nd noble truth. The 2nd noble truth is about the "arising/origination" ("samudaya") of suffering. The 2nd noble truth says suffering arises when there is craving leading to/resulting in new "becoming" ("bhava"). Therefore, two things are required for suffering to arise, namely: (i) craving; and (ii) becoming.

"Becoming" ("bhava") is merely a heightened form of "attachment" ("upadana"). The scriptures (AN 3.76) define "becoming" as the mind, fueled by craving, intensively pre-occupied or established in an object. In short, "bhava" is simply more selfishness or self-identity based in attachment. About the 2nd noble truth, rephrased, the scriptures say:

The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44

Therefore, the 2nd noble truth does say selfishness is one of many causes resulting in the origination/arising of suffering. The 2nd noble explains suffering arises when craving results in becoming selfish.

Kind regards

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further/new becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving to be, craving not the be.

SN 56.11

[2600htz]

Hello:

Without the selfishness property, suffering still can be discerned. Since suffering can arise based on attachment, ignorance, greed, etc.

But yes, being selfish is a big part of taking thing personally and giving up to cravings.

So the Buddha would advice, practice selfishness, but also developing other things.

He adviced practicing contemptment, but also right efford to change unwholesome states or to get a better livelihood.

(Read the 4 noble truth, thats the most important).

Regards.

[DooDoot]

Without the selfishness property, suffering still can be discerned. Since suffering can arise based on attachment, ignorance, greed, etc.

The above appears to be saying greed & attachment are not selfishness.

Thus, Ānanda, in dependence upon feeling there is craving; in dependence upon craving there is pursuit; in dependence upon pursuit there is gain; in dependence upon gain there is decision-making; in dependence upon decision-making there is desire and lust; in dependence upon desire and lust there is attachment; in dependence upon attachment there is possessiveness; in dependence upon possessiveness there is stinginess; in dependence upon stinginess there is safeguarding; and because of safeguarding, various evil unwholesome phenomena originate—the taking up of clubs and weapons, conflicts, quarrels, and disputes, insulting speech, slander, and falsehoods.

DN 15

[mjaviem]

... what's necessary to end suffering is to stop wanting things and accept the way things are, it worries me...

Would you rather act out of discontentment then? Do you think one cannot change things if being content? Do you think that being generous and benevolent yields no results?

...

[Jack19990101]

It is caused by one's own selfishness. It is not because others' selfishness.
It implies that one could achieve non-suffering all by oneself, even if everybody else stays as it is.
also -
if everybody else is selfishness (like some heavenly beings), if you are selfish, you will stay as it is.