Arhant

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tellyontellyon
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Arhant

Post by tellyontellyon »

Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Arhant

Post by Ceisiwr »

tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 pm Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:
The Buddha’s discover the path on their own and awaken on their own. Arahants awaken after being taught the Dhamma. Apart from that their awakening is the same.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tellyontellyon
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Re: Arhant

Post by tellyontellyon »

So once they are enlightened they are, at that point, the same. :buddha1:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Arhant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:02 pm So once they are enlightened they are, at that point, the same. :buddha1:
There are other differences noted in the scripture, but in terms of the cessation of dukkha, which is the purpose of the Dhamma, they are the same.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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tellyontellyon
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Re: Arhant

Post by tellyontellyon »

That's interesting, thank you.

Do you happen to have any references for the scripture... I have a copies of the Anguttara Nikaya and the Majjhima Nikaya at home.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Arhant

Post by TRobinson465 »

Buddha just means "awakened one" so they technically are "buddhas" in the literal sense of the world. However generally speaking in Buddhism, the phrase Buddha is reserved for the one to discover the path to awakening (arahantship) on thier own. All Buddhas are arahants (one of the qualities of the buddha is that he is an arahant) but not all arahants are Buddhas because the phrase is respectfully reserved for the one to discover the path in the first place.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
BKh
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Re: Arhant

Post by BKh »

Here is one sutta that talks about the difference:
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.58/en/bodhi

Excerpt:
“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, is the originator of the path unarisen before, the producer of the path unproduced before, the declarer of the path undeclared before. He is the knower of the path, the discoverer of the path, the one skilled in the path. And his disciples now dwell following that path and become possessed of it afterwards.
Here is a somewhat related passage from the Questions of King Milinda:
https://suttacentral.net/mil5.5.4/en/tw_rhysdavids
TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:29 am Buddha just means "awakened one" so they technically are "buddhas" in the literal sense of the world.
Within Theravada, this is not the accepted use of the word, regardless of any literal translation. Those who are regarded "only" as arahants are never called Buddhas, to my knowledge.
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Re: Arhant

Post by TRobinson465 »

BKh wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:28 am
Within Theravada, this is not the accepted use of the word, regardless of any literal translation. Those who are regarded "only" as arahants are never called Buddhas, to my knowledge.
Yes, this i know. I was just pointing out the literal translation of the word is all. Virtually nobody in Theravada considers arahants who enlighten with the guidance of somebody else a Buddha. The term is reserved for those who discover the path on their own.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Arhant

Post by Gwi »

tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 pm Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:

"Itipi-so Bhagavā, Arahaṃ, Sammāsambuddhå, Vijjācaraṇa-sampannå, Sugatå, Lokavidū, Anuttarå Purisa-dammasārathi, Satthā deva-manussānaṃ, Buddhå, Bhagavā."

"Bhagavā (The Buddhå) is Arahat ...."



Arahat: Who is not born again
Anāgāmī: Not-returning



* Bhagavā similiar with "His Majesty/Sire".
When we meet/talking bout King,
we using His/Your Majesty/Sire,
When we meet/talking bout The Buddhå,
With can use "Bhagavā".

The Buddhå is a King of Dhammå (Dhammarājå).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Arhant

Post by Gwi »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:29 am Buddha just means "awakened one" so they technically are "buddhas" in the literal sense of the world. However generally speaking in Buddhism, the phrase Buddha is reserved for the one to discover the path to awakening (arahantship) on thier own. All Buddhas are arahants (one of the qualities of the buddha is that he is an arahant) but not all arahants are Buddhas because the phrase is respectfully reserved for the one to discover the path in the first place.

Buddhå mean Perfect Human (a human)
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Arhant

Post by un8- »

tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 pm Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:
The Buddha is an Arahant

However not all Arahants are Buddhas

Buddha = self-awakened without hearing the voice of another
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Re: Arhant

Post by Coëmgenu »

tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 pm Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:
All Arhants are necessarily Buddhas and all Buddhas are necessarily Arhants. Not all Arhants are Sammāsaṁbuddhas. A Sammāsaṁbuddha is a special class of Buddha that is very rare in the world. According to mainstream Theravāda, Gotama was the latest of such Buddhas and Metteyya will be the next, a far time off in the future. An Arhant, in the Pāli tradition, instead of being called a Sammāsaṁbuddha, is called a "Sāvakabuddha," meaning a Buddha who is of the Sāvakas ("Śrāvakas" in Sanskrit).
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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tellyontellyon
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Re: Arhant

Post by tellyontellyon »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:59 pm
tellyontellyon wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:40 pm Hello, why is an Arhant not a Buddha?
Thank you.
:buddha1: :anjali:
All Arhants are necessarily Buddhas and all Buddhas are necessarily Arhants. Not all Arhants are Sammāsaṁbuddhas. A Sammāsaṁbuddha is a special class of Buddha that is very rare in the world. According to mainstream Theravāda, Gotama was the latest of such Buddhas and Metteyya will be the next, a far time off in the future. An Arhant, in the Pāli tradition, instead of being called a Sammāsaṁbuddha, is called a "Sāvakabuddha," meaning a Buddha who is of the Sāvakas ("Śrāvakas" in Sanskrit).
So they are both enlightened, but Sammasambuddha has some additional capacities?
I read one sutta where Mara was talking to Mogalana, and he said that he (Mogalana) had a quicker psychic ability than the Buddha... So I guess that all enlightened may have different abilities, but a Sammasambuddha has very particular qualities across a while range of things?
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BKh
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Re: Arhant

Post by BKh »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:59 pm All Arhants are necessarily Buddhas and all Buddhas are necessarily Arhants.
Can you please give some citation to back this up?
An Arhant, in the Pāli tradition, instead of being called a Sammāsaṁbuddha, is called a "Sāvakabuddha," meaning a Buddha who is of the Sāvakas ("Śrāvakas" in Sanskrit).
This is not true. The term "Sāvakabuddha" does not occur in the Suttas or Vinaya. It is barely even a commentarial term. Just because it is a Pali word in no way means that it is a thing in Theravada Buddhism.

All of this has been covered in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=677 (BTW, the op in that thread seems to be quoting from this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śrāvakayāna
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Re: Arhant

Post by Coëmgenu »

BKh wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:52 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:59 pmAll Arhants are necessarily Buddhas and all Buddhas are necessarily Arhants.
Can you please give some citation to back this up?
I can quote the Mahāṭṭhakathā, Book 26:
Te ca pana sāvakabuddhā paccekabuddhā sammāsambuddhāti tividhā, tesu idha sāvakabuddhā adhippetā.
It lists the three kinds of Buddhas: sāvakabuddhas, paccekabuddhas, and sammāsambuddhas. Sāvakabuddhas are a variety of Buddha. This three-way classification of ranks of Buddhas is present in both Theravādin and Mahāyānika Buddhisms. If you don't consider the Mahāṭṭhakathā to be Theravādin, you won't consider the term to be Theravādin either. The Mahāṭṭhakathā is, however, unambiguously an extremely important text of the Theravāda sect. This is not, IMO, merely IMO, as they say.

Also, consider the monastic morning service:
Iti pi so Bhagavā Arahaṁ Sammāsambuddho,
vijjācaraṇasampanno Sugato lokavidū,
anuttaro purisadammasārathī,
Satthā devamanussānaṁ Buddho Bhagavā ti.
Such is he, the Fortunate One, the Worthy One, the Perfect Sambuddha,
the one endowed with understanding and good conduct, the Fortunate One, the one who understands the worlds,
the unsurpassed guide for those people who need taming,
the Teacher of gods and men, the Buddha, the Fortunate One.
(translation Ven Ānandajoti)

The Buddha, despite being a Sambuddha, is also an Arahant. This listing of titles of the Buddha including "Arahant" is also present in the layer of the suttas:
Tena kho pana, pāpima, samayena kakusandho bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho loke uppanno hoti. Kakusandhassa kho pana, pāpima, bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa vidhurasañjīvaṁ nāma sāvakayugaṁ ahosi aggaṁ bhaddayugaṁ.
At that time Kakusandha, the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha arose in the world. Kakusandha had a fine pair of chief disciples named Vidhura and Sañjīva.
(Māratajjanīyasutta, MN 50, translation Ven Sujāto)

But this doesn't establish that all Buddhas are Arahants, nor does it established that all Arahants are Buddhas. It merely establishes that the Buddha was an Arahant, which tells us that this term means something different in these texts than the much later Mahāyāna re-definition of an Arahant as something short of Buddhahood, in need of further progression to become a Buddha. In the early texts, the Buddha is an Arahant, and also something greater, a Sammāsambuddha. He is identified as both of these things. Now, whether we can divine from the principle of "The Buddha was an Arahant" to "All Buddhas are Arahants and all Arahants are Buddhas" is something that I don't think we can get from the suttas. That level of detail is simply not there. We have to IMO refer to the Mahāṭṭhakathā.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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