Yes , i read that this physical body is old kamma . But what does "old" mean ?
Meaning of old kamma
Re: Meaning of old kamma
Resulting from previous intentions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Meaning of old kamma
Previous of what ? Of a second ago . A decade ago , a life time ago or what ? If a second or decade ago , meaning intention alone could bring about a new physical body ? How ? If by a life time ago that brought about this physical body ? How ?
Pls explain .
Last edited by asahi on Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Meaning of old kamma
I think it depends on which interpretation you want.
1) Modern one-life-timer, no rebirth version:
Previous moment of physical body (Avijja etc.) generated Kamma (mental action) and Bhava (Becoming of another new state/body movement), leading to present moment of physical body or mental state (Birth).
Deva, Peta,Brahma, Hell beings are mere metaphors for mental states. No next life or other realms.
2) The Orthodox Theravada version (Short version):
Now this so-called being in conventional term consists of 5 aggregates (Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana, as in Anattalakkhana Sutta) or could be known as Namarupa. Having these 5 aggregates combined together conditioned by Kamma Vipaka, is called a being collectively (Vajira Sutta).
Throughout his/her life, he/she performed profitable Kamma, unprofitable Kamma, and/or neither-wholesome-nor-unwholesome Kamma (which can be categorised as Sankhara or Kamma formations) at three doors, namely: Body (Kayakammam), Verbal (Vacikammam), and Mind (Manokammam); due to Avijja towards 4 Noble Truths. Having done these Kammas (thus generating consciousness while doing those deeds consciously), in turn lead to the formation of Resultant Consciousnesses (could be wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral). This process repeats countless times as long as the being lives and perform deeds through body, verbal, and Mind; seeking delights here and there due to craving.
Now when the being on his/her death bed, having last moments of his/her life, the resultant consciousnesses become the death consciousness (Cuti Vinnana). Now due to the Kamma accumulated all along his/her present lifetime, Kamma (or sign of Kamma, or sign of destination) will be the object of death consciousness. If unwholesome Kamma is majority (as in Balapandita Sutta), the death consciousness will make it as object, vice versa if wholesome.
"...when a fool is resting on a chair or a bed or on the ground, their past bad deeds—misconduct of body, speech, and mind—settle down upon them, rest down upon them, and lay down upon them. Then that fool thinks, ‘Well, I haven’t done good and skillful things that keep me safe. And I have done bad, violent, and depraved things. When I depart, I’ll go to the place where people who’ve done such things go.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breasts and falling into confusion. This is the third kind of suffering and sadness that a fool experiences in the present life.
Having done bad things by way of body, speech, and mind, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell." - Balapandita Sutta
Of course, the operation of Kamma will follows what has described in both Cula Kammavibhanga Sutta and Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta. The moment the death consciousness (having the object) ceased, the being is considered dead, no more life force, breakup of 5 aggregates.
Now, immediately after the death consciousness ceases, a consciousness, being conditioned by the Kamma (which was the object of death consciousness previously), contingent to Kamma, established in one of these realms: Human, Animals, Heaven, Peta, or Hell (Pancagati as in Suttanta) due to Kammic force. Or again, it can be interpreted as Sensual realms (Human, Deva, Peta, Tiracchana, Niraya), Form Realms (Rupa Brahma), or Formless Realms (Arupa Brahma) (Bhava Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya). Here,, there is no interval, when death consciousness ceases (cause), there arises birth consciousness at a realm determined by Kamma. It is important to see no one pass from one existence to another. For the previous life ends with the ceasing of Death consciousness. Therefore it was not transmigration or reincarnation of the same being (Soul doctrine).
Yet the being will be born next is conditioned by the Kamma accumulated since many lifetimes including previous life, so it can't be said the two are completely different (which will fall into the category of Annihilism doctrine).
Rather it is a stream of consciousness, arising and ceasing due to conditionality and Kamma-Vipaka, characterised by Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
It will going through Jati based on Four Modes of Birth. In the case of human beings, since it was mentioned in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttanta:
"...when there is a union of the mother & father, the mother is in her season, and a gandhabba* is present, then with this union of three things the descent of the embryo occurs."
* Not Gandhabba in Deva sense, it refers to a being to be reborn that cankers remained.
Or in Pathamabhava Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya:
"If, Ānanda, there were no kamma ripening in the sensual realm, would continued existence in the sensual realm still come about?”
“No, sir.”
“So, Ānanda, kamma are the field, consciousness is the seed, and craving is the moisture. The intention and aim of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving—is established in a lower realm. That’s how there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future."
There, the union of three things bring forth Namarupa. But since consciousness thus established in this realm and conditioned the arising of Namarupa.
Vinnana + (Vedana+Sanna+Sankhara=Nama)+Rupa = 5 aggregates (Pancakkhandha)
Since Vinnana be a condition to bring forth Namarupa, there "Vinnana paccaya Namarupa" as in the scripture.
From this Namarupa being a condition, bring forth Salayatana (the six bases: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind). A so-called being now formed with physical body. And this current physical body was brought to by the conditionality and Kamma vipaka.
1) Modern one-life-timer, no rebirth version:
Previous moment of physical body (Avijja etc.) generated Kamma (mental action) and Bhava (Becoming of another new state/body movement), leading to present moment of physical body or mental state (Birth).
Deva, Peta,Brahma, Hell beings are mere metaphors for mental states. No next life or other realms.
2) The Orthodox Theravada version (Short version):
Now this so-called being in conventional term consists of 5 aggregates (Rupa, Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, and Vinnana, as in Anattalakkhana Sutta) or could be known as Namarupa. Having these 5 aggregates combined together conditioned by Kamma Vipaka, is called a being collectively (Vajira Sutta).
Throughout his/her life, he/she performed profitable Kamma, unprofitable Kamma, and/or neither-wholesome-nor-unwholesome Kamma (which can be categorised as Sankhara or Kamma formations) at three doors, namely: Body (Kayakammam), Verbal (Vacikammam), and Mind (Manokammam); due to Avijja towards 4 Noble Truths. Having done these Kammas (thus generating consciousness while doing those deeds consciously), in turn lead to the formation of Resultant Consciousnesses (could be wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral). This process repeats countless times as long as the being lives and perform deeds through body, verbal, and Mind; seeking delights here and there due to craving.
Now when the being on his/her death bed, having last moments of his/her life, the resultant consciousnesses become the death consciousness (Cuti Vinnana). Now due to the Kamma accumulated all along his/her present lifetime, Kamma (or sign of Kamma, or sign of destination) will be the object of death consciousness. If unwholesome Kamma is majority (as in Balapandita Sutta), the death consciousness will make it as object, vice versa if wholesome.
"...when a fool is resting on a chair or a bed or on the ground, their past bad deeds—misconduct of body, speech, and mind—settle down upon them, rest down upon them, and lay down upon them. Then that fool thinks, ‘Well, I haven’t done good and skillful things that keep me safe. And I have done bad, violent, and depraved things. When I depart, I’ll go to the place where people who’ve done such things go.’ They sorrow and wail and lament, beating their breasts and falling into confusion. This is the third kind of suffering and sadness that a fool experiences in the present life.
Having done bad things by way of body, speech, and mind, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell." - Balapandita Sutta
Of course, the operation of Kamma will follows what has described in both Cula Kammavibhanga Sutta and Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta. The moment the death consciousness (having the object) ceased, the being is considered dead, no more life force, breakup of 5 aggregates.
Now, immediately after the death consciousness ceases, a consciousness, being conditioned by the Kamma (which was the object of death consciousness previously), contingent to Kamma, established in one of these realms: Human, Animals, Heaven, Peta, or Hell (Pancagati as in Suttanta) due to Kammic force. Or again, it can be interpreted as Sensual realms (Human, Deva, Peta, Tiracchana, Niraya), Form Realms (Rupa Brahma), or Formless Realms (Arupa Brahma) (Bhava Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya). Here,, there is no interval, when death consciousness ceases (cause), there arises birth consciousness at a realm determined by Kamma. It is important to see no one pass from one existence to another. For the previous life ends with the ceasing of Death consciousness. Therefore it was not transmigration or reincarnation of the same being (Soul doctrine).
Yet the being will be born next is conditioned by the Kamma accumulated since many lifetimes including previous life, so it can't be said the two are completely different (which will fall into the category of Annihilism doctrine).
Rather it is a stream of consciousness, arising and ceasing due to conditionality and Kamma-Vipaka, characterised by Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
It will going through Jati based on Four Modes of Birth. In the case of human beings, since it was mentioned in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttanta:
"...when there is a union of the mother & father, the mother is in her season, and a gandhabba* is present, then with this union of three things the descent of the embryo occurs."
* Not Gandhabba in Deva sense, it refers to a being to be reborn that cankers remained.
Or in Pathamabhava Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya:
"If, Ānanda, there were no kamma ripening in the sensual realm, would continued existence in the sensual realm still come about?”
“No, sir.”
“So, Ānanda, kamma are the field, consciousness is the seed, and craving is the moisture. The intention and aim of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving—is established in a lower realm. That’s how there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future."
There, the union of three things bring forth Namarupa. But since consciousness thus established in this realm and conditioned the arising of Namarupa.
Vinnana + (Vedana+Sanna+Sankhara=Nama)+Rupa = 5 aggregates (Pancakkhandha)
Since Vinnana be a condition to bring forth Namarupa, there "Vinnana paccaya Namarupa" as in the scripture.
From this Namarupa being a condition, bring forth Salayatana (the six bases: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind). A so-called being now formed with physical body. And this current physical body was brought to by the conditionality and Kamma vipaka.
Last edited by Ontheway on Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Meaning of old kamma
No. The relevant suttas SN 35.146 & SN 12.37 do not mention kamma vipaka. They refer to old kamma & new kamma. The suttas appear to literally say old kamma is the sense bases/aggregates that have been conditioned by intention in the past. As for any "vipaka", it has how that old kamma is felt (vedaniyaṁ) in the present.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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"It is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt." - the old kamma is past kamma, past volitional formations. Those actions, kammas of the past, (old kammas), result in feelings arising in the present. In other words it is the kamma resultants of old kammas that arise in the present, not old kammas. All kammas that were made in any past moment is an old kamma.
Re: Meaning of old kamma
It mean: past.
It's been a long time
(since you first appeared in the world)
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Re: Meaning of old kamma
"since you first appeared in the world"
In what way you know a person first appear in the world?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Meaning of old kamma
With delusions
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Re: Meaning of old kamma
And delusion is the beginning ? Doesn't that in direct contradiction with Buddhavacana?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Meaning of old kamma
this is the world: with delusion as a condition ...
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."