🟩 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

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ToVincent
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

JohnK wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:40 pm
“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for doubt: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt.
Here, X is not made clear, just "things." :shrug:
Wondering why no specifics?
___________
There are dhammā that are ways to rely on support for deviant thinking.
Atthi, bhikkhave, vicikicchāṭṭhānīyā dhammā.

Frequently and improperly not-turning the mano towards the origin (of those dhammā), is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen deviant thinking, and for the increase and expansion of arisen deviant thinking.
Tattha ayonisomanasikārabahulīkāro ayamāhāro anuppannāya vā vicikicchāya uppādāya, uppannāya vā vicikicchāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya.
SN 46.51
dhamma - from √ dhṛ = 'that undertakes, and maintains (or restrain) activity).

The proper translation might be the following:

Frequently and improperly not-turning the mano towards the origin of those things that undertake and maintain activity, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen deviant thinking, and for the increase and expansion of arisen deviant thinking.

The "specifics" is in the underlying meaning of "dhamma".

And I would say that craving is the origin of those āhāre-dhammā. And those āhāre-dhammā are just food, feelings, contact (transference), thoughts, manosañcetana, and consciousness/knowledge (as per Nikayas and Agamas definitions (see above)).
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
JohnK
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

ToVincent wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:29 am ...
Thanks for the possible alternative translation and interpretation. :anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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nirodh27
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Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

This week topic should be changed to this year topic since there's so much nutriment for discussion, for insight and for dispassion that at least a year would be needed to comment everything to pay homage to the teachings here.

The charcoal example is the example that really helped me to understand the meaning of Sankhara in the teachings. For the teachings to truly work this intention and this desire (because desire is a form o sankhara right?) to escape (while many times I find Buddhist that wants "to endure" or "to accept" which will simply mean that you agree to go inside the charcoal pit, but with an happier mindset) truly must be present. The desire to escape is the same of the one that will motivate the escape of the servant of the four vipers that can get mad at you anytime that are a simile for the four elements.

But at the same time the flayed cow example reminds us that even if the energy and the direction is the one of escaping from the world, the escape is made not just by fleeing (for the worldling in sensual pleasures) that it is useless, but to find a place where contact doesn't happen at all or happens totally disjoined by removing the link between the internal and external as in the butcher's parable. Which reminds me also of "making yourself your own island". We need to find a good place for that cow (that consciousness) to stay (to -not- land).

The consciousness simile instead is like a meditation on the necessity of Nibbana for our poor consciousness. Until you realize the escape, every consciousness have to be seen as an affliction. Every day have to be seen as an affliction made by many afflictions. It is the contrary of the meditation about Death, but the two are the face of the same coin and work in tandem: you don't have infinite time to get the escape and every single day that you live in prison is a day that is many hours that is many minutes and all that time is plagued by Dukkha. Those two meditations in pair will really motivate someone who internalize both.
“Bhikkhus, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible.
I cannot grasp the full meaning of this. I hope it will be expanded from others. I don't know if it is a statement that is also about rebirth or also about the limits of knowledge.
ToVincent
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: 📍 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

nirodh27 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:22 pm
Bhikkhus, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible.

I cannot grasp the full meaning of this. I hope it will be expanded from others. I don't know if it is a statement that is also about rebirth or also about the limits of knowledge.
As explained above:
viewtopic.php?p=649216#p649216

The khandhas in nāmarūpa nidāna are the home of consciousness (SN 22.3).

Consciousness cannot be made known, both as nidassana and established in the khandhas of the nāmarūpa nidāna - and as sense consciousness in the saḷāyatana nidāna — without the khandhas being home for the nidassana consciousness - and the descent of the khandhas in the saḷāyatana nidāna.

Moreover the coming of consciousness is the establishing of consciousness — and the going of consciousness is the maintenance of consciousness (that cannot occur without the descent of the khandhas in the saḷāyatana nidāna - and the process that ensue).
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.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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