AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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AN 10.29 [AN v 59] Kosala 1
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

https://suttacentral.net/an10.29

(1) “Bhikkhus, as far as Kāsi and Kosala extend, as far as the realm of King Pasenadi of Kosala extends, there King Pasenadi of Kosala ranks as the foremost. But even for King Pasenadi there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(2) “Bhikkhus, as far as sun and moon revolve and light up the quarters with their brightness, so far the thousandfold world system extends. [2016] In that thousandfold world system there are a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sinerus king of mountains, a thousand Jambudīpas, a thousand Aparagoyānas, a thousand Uttarakurus, a thousand Pubbavidehas, and a thousand four great oceans; a thousand four great kings, a thousand heavens ruled by the four great kings, a thousand Tāvatiṃsa heavens, a thousand Yāma heavens, a thousand Tusita heavens, a thousand heavens of devas who delight in creation, a thousand heavens of devas who control what is created by others, a thousand brahmā worlds. As far, bhikkhus, as this thousandfold world system extends, Mahābrahmā there ranks as the foremost. But even for Mahābrahmā there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(3) “There comes a time, bhikkhus, when this world dissolves. When the world is dissolving, beings for the most part migrate to the devas of streaming radiance. [2017] There they exist mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the skies, living in glory, and they remain thus for a very long time. When the world is dissolving, the devas of streaming radiance rank as the foremost. But even for these devas there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(4) “Bhikkhus, there are these ten kasiṇa bases. [2018] What ten? One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. One person perceives the water kasiṇa … the fire kasiṇa … the air kasiṇa … the blue kasiṇa … the yellow kasiṇa … the red kasiṇa … the white kasiṇa … the space kasiṇa … the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. These are the ten kasiṇa bases. Of these ten kasiṇa bases, this is the foremost, namely, when one perceives the consciousness kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless. There are beings who are percipient in such a way. But even for beings who are percipient in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(5) “Bhikkhus, there are these eight bases of overcoming. [2019] What eight?

i “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the first basis of overcoming.

ii “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the second basis of overcoming.

iii “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the third basis of overcoming.

iv “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fourth basis of overcoming.

v “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, blue ones, blue in color, with a blue hue, with a blue tint. Just as the flax flower is blue, blue in color, with a blue hue, with a blue tint, or just as Bārāṇasī cloth, smoothened on both sides, might be blue, blue in color, with a blue hue, with a blue tint, so too, one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, blue ones…. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fifth basis of overcoming.

vi “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, yellow ones, with a yellow hue, with a yellow tint. Just as the kaṇikāra flower is yellow, yellow in color, with a yellow hue, with a yellow tint, or just as Bārāṇasī cloth, smoothened on both sides, might be yellow, yellow in color, with a yellow hue, with a yellow tint, so too, one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, yellow ones…. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the sixth basis of overcoming.

vii “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, red ones, with a red hue, with a red tint. Just as the bandhujīvaka flower is red, red in color, with a red hue, with a red tint, or just as Bārāṇasī cloth, smoothened on both sides, might be red, red in color with a red hue, with a red tint, so too, one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, red ones…. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the seventh basis of overcoming.

viii “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, white ones, white in color, with a white hue, with a white tint. Just as the morning star is white, white in color, with a white hue, with a white tint, or just as Bārāṇasī cloth, smoothened on both sides, might be white, white in color, with a white hue, with a white tint, so too, one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, white ones…. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the eighth basis of overcoming.

“These are the eight bases of overcoming. Of these eight bases of overcoming, this is the foremost, namely, that one not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, white ones, white in color with a white hue, with a white tint, and having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ There are beings who are percipient in such a way. But even for beings who are percipient in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(6) “Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. [2020] What four? Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge; practice that is painful with quick direct knowledge; practice that is pleasant with sluggish direct knowledge; and practice that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge. These are the four modes of practice. Of these four modes of practice, this is the foremost, namely, practice that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge. There are beings who practice in such a way. But even for beings who practice in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(7) “Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of perception. What four? One person perceives what is limited; another perceives what is exalted; another perceives what is measureless; and still another, perceiving ‘There is nothing,’ perceives the base of nothingness. [2021] These are the four modes of perception. Of these four modes of perception, this is the foremost, namely, when, perceiving ‘There is nothing,’ one perceives the base of nothingness. There are beings who perceive in such a way. But even for beings who perceive in such a way there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(8) “Bhikkhus, of the speculative views held by outsiders, this is the foremost, namely: ‘I might not be and it might not be mine; I shall not be, and it will not be mine.’ [2022] For it can be expected that one who holds such a view will not be unrepelled by existence and will not be repelled by the cessation of existence. [2023] There are beings who hold such a view. But even for beings who hold such a view there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(9) “Bhikkhus, there are some ascetics and brahmins who proclaim supreme purification. [2024] Of those who proclaim supreme purification, this is the foremost, namely, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, one enters and dwells in the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. They teach their Dhamma for the direct knowledge and realization of this. There are beings who assert thus. But even for those who assert thus, there is alteration; there is change. Seeing this thus, the instructed noble disciple becomes disenchanted with it; being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate toward the foremost, not to speak of what is inferior.

(10) “Bhikkhus, there are some ascetics and brahmins who proclaim supreme nibbāna in this very life. [2025] Of those who proclaim supreme nibbāna in this very life, this is the foremost, namely, emancipation through non-clinging after one has seen as they really are the origin and passing away, the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to the six bases for contact.

“Bhikkhus, though I assert and declare my teaching in such a way, some ascetics and brahmins untruthfully, baselessly, falsely, and wrongly misrepresent me, by saying: ‘The ascetic Gotama does not proclaim the full understanding of sensual pleasures, the full understanding of forms, or the full understanding of feelings.’ But, bhikkhus, I do proclaim the full understanding of sensual pleasures, the full understanding of forms, and the full understanding of feelings. In this very life, hungerless, quenched, and cooled, I proclaim final nibbāna through non-clinging.” [2026]

Notes

[2016] This cosmology is also at AN 3.80

[2017] Yebhuyyena sattā ābhassarasaṃvattanikā bhavanti. This seems to mean that they are reborn among the ābhassara devas, the highest plane corresponding to the second jhāna. It remains while all the lower planes of existence undergo dissolution.

[2018] As above at AN 10.25.

[2019] As at AN 8.65.

[2020] As at AN 4.161, AN 4.162.

[2021] Mp does not comment, but I assume these four perceptions are sense-sphere perception, perception in the four jhānas, perception in the first two formless attainments, and perception in the base of nothingness.

[2022] No c’assa no ca me siyā, na bhavissati na me bhavissati. This cryptic formula occurs in the Nikāyas in two versions. One is ascribed to the annihilationists; the other is the Buddha’s adaptation of it. The annihilationist version reads: no c’ assaṃ no ca me siyā, na bhavissāmi na me bhavissati, “I may not be, and it might not be mine. I will not be, and it will not be mine.” Since the two differ only with respect to two verbs—no c’assam vs. no c’assa, and na bhavissāmi vs. na bhavissati—the various recensions sometimes confuse them. From the commentarial glosses, it appears that the confusion had already set in before the age of the commentaries. Readings also differ among different editions of the same text. Generally I prefer the readings in Ce.

This formula is explicitly identified as an annihilationist view (ucchedadiṭṭhi) at SN 22.81, III 99,4–6. In AN, at AN 10.29 §8, V 63,28–64,2, it is said to be the foremost of outside speculative views (etadaggaṃ bāhirakānaṃ diṭṭhigatānaṃ). The Buddha transformed this formula into a theme for contemplation conformable to his own teaching by replacing the first-person verbs with their third-person counterparts. This change shifts the stress from the view of self implicit in the annihilationist version (“I will be annihilated”) to an impersonal perspective that harmonizes with the anattā doctrine. In some texts, for example at SN 22.55, III 55–58, practicing on the basis of the formula is said to culminate in the destruction of the five lower fetters, that is, in the stage of a non-returner. Sometimes, as in the present sutta, the formula includes a trailer (see below), contemplation of which is said to lead to equanimity. Practice guided by the full formula leads to one of the five levels of non-returner or to arahantship.

In the Nikāyas the precise meaning of the formula is never made explicit, which suggests that it may have served as an open guide to contemplation to be filled in by the meditator through personal intuition. The commentaries, including Mp, take the truncated particle c’ to represent ce, “if,” and interpret the two parts of the formula as conditionals. I translate here from Mp (in conformity with its own interpretation): “If it had not been: If, in the past, there had been no kamma producing individual existence; it would not be mine: now I would have no individual existence. There will not be: Now there will be no kamma producing a future individual existence for me; there will not be mine: in the future there will be no individual existence for me.”

I dissent from the commentaries on the meaning of c’, which I take to represent ca = “and.” The syntax of the phrase as a whole requires this. Skt parallels actually contain ca (for instance, Udānavarga 15:4, parallel to Ud 78,1–3, has: no ca syān no ca me syā[n]; and MĀ 6 contains the character (= “and”) in the appropriate places of the formula. As I interpret the meaning, the first “it” refers to the personal five aggregates, the second to the world apprehended through the aggregates. For the worldling this dyad is misconstrued as a duality of self and world; for the noble disciple it is simply the duality of internal and external phenomena. On this basis I would interpret the formula thus: “The five aggregates can be terminated, and the world presented by them can be terminated. I will so strive that the five aggregates will be terminated, (and thus) the world presented by them will be terminated.”

The trailer reads in Pāli: yadatthi yaṃ bhūtaṃ taṃ pajahāmī ti upekkhaṃ paṭilabhati. Following Mp, I understand “what exists, what has come to be” (yadatthi yaṃ bhūtaṃ) as the presently existing five aggregates. These have come to be through the craving of previous lives and are being abandoned by the abandonment of the cause for their re-arising in a future life, namely, craving or desire-and-lust.

[2023] Yā cāyaṃ bhave appaṭikulyatā, sā c’assa na bhavissati, yā cāyaṃ bhavanirodhe pāṭikulyatā, sā c’assa na bhavissati. The point, it seems, is that because annihilationism arises from aversion toward continued personal existence, the annihilationist welcomes the cessation of existence, though from the Buddha’s perspective annihilationism goes too far by misinterpreting such cessation as the annihilation of a real self or existent person. See It §49, 43–44.

[2024] Paramatthavisuddhim paññāpenti. Mp: “This is a designation for the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. For the base of nothingness is highest as the foundation for insight, but the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is highest in terms of long lifespan.”

[2025] Paramadiṭṭhadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ paññāpenti. See DN 1.3.19–25, I 36–38, where five views of “supreme nibbāna in this very life” are examined. These hold that supreme nibbāna is the unrestrained enjoyment of the five kinds of sensual pleasure or each of the four jhānas (taken individually). The Buddha opposes these here with the assertion that supreme nibbāna is attained by fully understanding the six sense bases for contact. The same is said at DN 1.3.71, I 45,17–20. 2026 Mp glosses “full understanding” (pariññā) here with overcoming (samatikkama). The full understanding (or overcoming) of sensual pleasures occurs by the first jhāna; the full understanding of form, by the formless meditative attainments; and the full understanding of feelings, by the attainment of nibbāna, where all feeling has been stilled.
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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AN 10.29 PTS: A v 59 Kosala Sutta: The Kosalan
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


Like supremacy in the human and deva worlds, exalted states of mind — even experiences of all-encompassing white light and non-dual consciousness — are all subject to change and aberration. Some people criticized the Buddha for showing the way to freedom from this change and aberration. In this sutta the Buddha offers a series of contemplations for inducing disenchantment and dispassion for even the most supreme things in the cosmos. [TB]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[1] "Monks, as far as Kasi & Kosala extend, as far as the rule of King Pasenadi the Kosalan extends, King Pasenadi the Kosalan is reckoned supreme. Yet even in King Pasenadi the Kosalan there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[2] "As far as the sun & moon revolve, illumining the directions with their light, there extends the thousand-fold cosmos. In that thousand-fold cosmos there are a thousand moons, a thousand suns, a thousand Sunerus — kings of mountains; a thousand Rose-apple continents, [1] a thousand Deathless Ox-cart [continents], a thousand northern Kuru [continents], a thousand eastern Videha [continents]; four thousand great oceans, four thousand Great Kings, a thousand [heavens of the] Four Great Kings, a thousand [heavens of the] Thirty-three, a thousand [heavens of the] Yamas, a thousand [heavens of the] Tusitas, a thousand heavens of the Nimmanaratis, a thousand heavens of the Paranimmitavasavattis, [2] and a thousand Brahma worlds. And in that thousand-fold cosmos, the Great Brahma is reckoned supreme. Yet even in the Great Brahma there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[3] "There comes a time when this cosmos devolves. When the cosmos is devolving, most beings head to the [heaven of] the Radiant. There they remain for a long, long time — mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-radiant, faring through the sky, abiding in splendor. When the cosmos is devolving, the Radiant Devas are reckoned supreme. Yet even in the Radiant Devas, there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[4] "There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual,[3] unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[5] "There are these There are these eight dimensions of [mental] mastery. Which eight?

(a) "Having a single perception of form internally, one sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the first dimension of [mental] mastery.

(b) "Having a single perception of form internally, one sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the second dimension of [mental] mastery.

(c) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the third dimension of [mental] mastery.

(d) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the fourth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(e) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Just as a flax-flower is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow; in the same way, having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the fifth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(f) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Just as a kannikara-flower is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow; in the same way, having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the sixth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(g) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Just as a bandha-jivaka-flower is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow; in the same way, having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the seventh dimension of [mental] mastery.

(h) "Having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Just as the morning star is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow; in the same way, having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Mastering them, one has the perception, 'I know; I see.' This is the eighth dimension of [mental] mastery.

"These are the eight dimensions of mental mastery. Now, of these eight dimensions of mastery, this is supreme: when, having a single formless perception internally, one sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[6] "There are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, and pleasant practice with quick intuition. These are the four modes of practice. Now, of these four modes of practice, this is supreme: pleasant practice with quick intuition. And there are beings whose practice is like this. Yet even in the beings whose practice is like this there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[7] "There are these four perceptions. Which four? One perceives the limited [ordinary perceptions]. One perceives the enlarged [the mind in jhana]. One perceives the immeasurable [the mind in the Brahma attitudes]. One perceives the dimension of nothingness: 'There is nothing.' These are the four perceptions. Now, of these four perceptions, this is supreme: when one perceives the dimension of nothingness: 'There is nothing.' And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[8] "The supreme view-point external [to the Dhamma] is this: 'I should not be; it should not occur to me; I will not be; it will not occur to me.' Of one with this view it may be expected that '[the perception of] unloathsomeness of becoming will not occur to him, and [the perception of] loathsomeness of the cessation of becoming will not occur to him.' And there are beings who have this view. Yet even in the beings who have this view there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[9] "There are some brahmans & contemplatives who declare the foremost purity of the spirit. [4] Now, of those who proclaim the foremost purity of the spirit, these are supreme: those who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enter & remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and who, having directly known & realized this, teach their Dhamma. And there are beings who teach in this way. Yet even in the beings who teach in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

[10] "There are some brahmans & contemplatives who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now. Now, of those who proclaim the foremost Unbinding in the here-&-now, this is supreme: liberation through non-clinging, having known, as they actually are present, the arising, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks of, & the escape from the six sense-contact media. And when I teach that, when I point that out, some brahmans & contemplatives accuse me of being false, unfactual, hollow, vain, [saying,] 'Gotama the contemplative does not declare the full comprehension of sensuality, does not declare the full comprehension of forms, does not declare the full comprehension of feelings.' But I do declare the full comprehension of sensuality, I do declare the full comprehension of forms, I do declare the full comprehension of feelings. Unhungering, unbound, cooled in the here-&-now, I declare total Unbinding from lack of clinging."

Notes

1. The Rose-apple continent is an ancient name for the Indian sub-continent. Classical Buddhist cosmology regarded the world as arranged in four continents around Mt. Suneru. On the south was the Rose-apple continent; on the west, the Deathless Ox-cart continent; on the north, the Northern Kuru continent; and on the east, the Eastern Videha continent.

2. The phrase "a thousand heavens of the Nimmanaratis, and a thousand heavens of the Paranimmitavasavattis" is in the Sinhalese edition of the Pali canon, but not in the Thai edition.

3. Advayam.

4. See Sn 4.11, notes 2 and 4.
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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mikenz66 wrote:AN 10.29 [AN v 59] Kosala 1
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

https://suttacentral.net/an10.29

i “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the first basis of overcoming.

iii “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the third basis of overcoming.
I'm not clear about this distinction between being percipient of forms internally and externally. It seems to imply that it doesn't matter whether or not one is percipient of forms internally, providing one is percipient of forms externally? Or am I missing the point?
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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Here are the footnotes to AN 8.65, which BB's footnote refers back to:

“Bhikkhus, there are these eight bases of overcoming.[1771] What eight?
(1) “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the first basis of overcoming.[1772]
(2) “One percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the second basis of overcoming.[1773]
(3) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, limited, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the third basis of overcoming.[1774]
(4) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, measureless, beautiful or ugly. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fourth basis of overcoming.
(5) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, blue ones, blue in color, with a blue hue, with a blue tint. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fifth basis of overcoming.[1775]
(6) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, yellow ones, yellow in color, with a yellow hue, with a yellow tint. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the sixth basis of overcoming.
(7) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, red ones, red in color, with a red hue, with a red tint. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the seventh basis of overcoming.
(8) “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally, white ones, white in color, with a white hue, with a white tint. Having overcome them, he is percipient thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the eighth basis of overcoming. “These, bhikkhus, are the eight bases of overcoming.”

Notes

[1771] Abhibhāyatanāni. From the descriptions both in the text and commentary, it seems that the “bases of overcoming” are actually approaches to the kasiṇas, described in detail in Vism, chaps. 4 and 5.
Mp: “The abhibhāyatanāni are causes of overcoming (abhibhavanakāraṇāni). What do they overcome? The adverse qualities and the objects. For they overcome the adverse qualities opposed to them (paṭipakkhabhāvena paccanīkadhamme) and, through a person’s superior knowledge, [they overcome] the objects (puggalassa ñāṇuttariyatāya ārammaṇāni).”

[1772] Mp: “Percipient of forms internally (ajjhattaṃ rūpasaññī): This refers to the internal form used for the preliminary work. For someone does the preliminary work [of meditation] on a blue form, such as the head hairs, the bile, or the irises. Doing the preliminary work on a yellow form, he uses bodily fat, the skin, or the surfaces of the hands and feet, or a yellow area in the eyes. Doing the preliminary work on a red form, he uses flesh, blood, the tongue, or a red area in the eyes. Doing the preliminary work on a white form, he uses bones, teeth, nails, or the whites of the eyes. These are not perfectly blue, yellow, red, or white, but impure. [He] sees forms externally (eko bahiddhā rūpāni passati): When the preliminary work has thus occurred internally, but the mark appears externally, he is said to be ‘one percipient of forms internally [who] sees forms externally,’ that is, his preliminary work is done internally but absorption (jhāna) occurs externally. Having overcome them (tāni abhibhuyya): As a person with good digestion who has obtained a mere spoonful of food collects it together, thinking, ‘What is there to eat here?’ and uses limited ability, so a person whose knowledge is emerging, one of clear knowledge, thinks: ‘What is there to attain in regard to a limited object? This isn’t troublesome for me.’ Having overcome those forms, he enters an attainment, and with the arising of the mark he reaches absorption. He is percipient thus (evaṃsaññī hoti): He is percipient with the perception of reflective attention (ābhoga) and with the perception of the jhāna. ‘I know, I see’ (jānāmi passāmi): By this, his reflective attention is spoken of; for that occurs after he has emerged from the attainment, not in the attainment itself. The perception of overcoming (abhibhavanasaññā) exists in the attainment, but the perception of reflective attention (ābhogasaññā) occurs after he has emerged from the attainment.”

[1773] Mp: “As a hungry person who has obtained ample food does not see that meal as large but thinks: ‘Give me seconds and thirds. What will this do for me?’ so a person whose knowledge is emerging, one of clear knowledge, thinks: ‘What is there to attain here? This isn’t a measureless object. It isn’t troublesome for me to obtain one-pointedness of mind.’ Having overcome [those forms], he enters an attainment, and with the arising of the mark he reaches absorption.”

[1774] Mp: “One not percipient of forms internally sees forms externally (ajjhattaṃ arūpasaññī eko bahiddhā rūpāni passati): This describes one for whom the preliminary work and the mark have arisen externally. Thus both by way of the preliminary work and by way of absorption, he is called one who is not percipient of forms internally [but] sees forms externally.”

[1775] Mp: “From the fifth base of overcoming on, he shows their thorough purification. For these bases are stated by way of purified colors (visuddhavaṇṇavasen’eva).” The colored bases of overcoming are illustrated by similes below at AN 10.29 [the current sutta], as well as at DN 16.3.29–32, II 110–11
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by mikenz66 »

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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by SarathW »

What is the significance of talking about so much colours (blue ,red etc).
Why he has to elaborate each colours?
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by Zom »

I'm sure all these kasinas and shperes of transcendence is something deeply connected with jhanic experience. These are to be practised when you are in jhana. And Commentary (as I see it) is totally wrong here. Seeing forms means "seeing devas and (probably) other otherwordly beings" (check AN 8.64). Also seeing forms is connected with seeing light in meditation (see MN 128).

I recall Ajahn Jayasaro explained me it this way (presumably from his personal experience): [In meditation] at first you see some white dots of light. And then when you peer into them, you see that actually these are not "dots" at all, but these are beings.
What is the significance of talking about so much colours (blue ,red etc).
Why he has to elaborate each colours?
An interesting thing here is the spectrum. Take notice the sequence: Blue / Yellow / Red / White - where white is called "supreme". Now take a look here: https://architeckne.files.wordpress.com ... ism-02.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; First three colors divide whole spectrum into equal parts. And the last color - white - is the "pre-spectrum" color, this color "combines" all other colors. :idea:
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by mikenz66 »

See also this earlier thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4389.

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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by starphlo »

Blue, yellow and red combine to produce all the other colors under the sun. I never thought of that in relation to the kasinas before..
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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

Post by mikenz66 »

starphlo wrote:Blue, yellow and red combine to produce all the other colors under the sun. I never thought of that in relation to the kasinas before..
You think the white comes after blue, yellow, red, as the combination? That's a nice idea. Nowdays we usually combine colours blue+green+red to give other colours, but yellow and green are quite close. Note that's combining light. Combining pigments works differently, so I'm not sure how you'd go about combining light in the "old days".

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Re: AN 10.29 Kosala 1

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Not exactly a pertinent comment here, but:

When the light is reflecting off an eye lash of mine, from time to time, I can see (because it is very close to my eye) a large circular spot. It is the end of the eye lash; the circular tip of the lashes end. In there are only four colors. White, red, blue and yellow. I found that interesting after reading the kosala sutta a while back. It's like a tapestry of these four colors and no others.
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