AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself.

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AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself.

Post by mikenz66 »

AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself.
Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

45. "Suppose there were a pool of water — sullied, turbid, and muddy. A man with good eyesight standing there on the bank would not see shells, gravel, and pebbles, or shoals of fish swimming about and resting. Why is that? Because of the sullied nature of the water. In the same way, that a monk with a sullied mind would know his own benefit, the benefit of others, the benefit of both; that he would realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge & vision: Such a thing is impossible. Why is that? Because of the sullied nature of his mind."

46. "Suppose there were a pool of water — clear, limpid, and unsullied. A man with good eyesight standing there on the bank would see shells, gravel, & pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of the water. In the same way, that a monk with an unsullied mind would know his own benefit, the benefit of others, the benefit of both; that he would realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction of knowledge & vision: Such a thing is possible. Why is that? Because of the unsullied nature of his mind."

47. "Just as, of all trees, the balsam is foremost in terms of softness and pliancy, in the same way I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, is as soft & pliant as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, is soft & pliant."

48. "I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by mikenz66 »

Notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

“Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing that changes so
quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how
quickly the mind changes.”
  • Mp, using the Abhidhamma model of the mind, takes this to
    refer to the extreme speed with which the mind arises and van-
    ishes. But at Vin I 150, 7–14 , in a passage on the conditions that
    entitle a bhikkhu to cut short his rains observance, it is said that
    if a woman is trying to seduce a bhikkhu at his rains residence,
    he is entitled to depart after reflecting: “The Blessed One said
    that the mind is quick to change, and here there is an obstacle to
    my living the celibate life.” In this context, the obvious sense is
    not that the mind arises and ceases quickly but that one might
    suddenly change one’s mind, giving up the celibate life to submit
    to the charms of the woman.
    “This is a case, monks, where a woman invites a monk who has entered upon the rains, saying: ‘Come, honoured sir, I will give you gold or I will give you gold ornaments or I will give you a field or I will give you a site or I will give you a bull or I will give you a cow or I will give you a slave or I will give you a slave woman or I will give you (my) daughter as wife or I will be your wife or I will lead another wife to you.’ If it then occurs to the monk: ‘The mind is called quickly-changing by the Lord, and this may be a danger to my Brahma-faring’, he should depart. There is no offence in cutting short the rains.
    https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd3
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by not myself today »

and for those who favor Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations:

45
“Bhikkhus, suppose there were a pool of water that was cloudy, turbid, and muddy. Then a man with good sight standing on the bank could not see shells, gravel and pebbles, and shoals of fish swimming about and resting. For what reason? Because the water is cloudy. So too, it is impossible for a bhikkhu with a cloudy mind to know his own good, the good of others, or the good of both, or to realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. For what reason? Because his mind is cloudy.”

46
“Bhikkhus, suppose there were a pool of water that was clear, serene, and limpid. Then a man with good sight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel and pebbles, and shoals of fish swimming about and resting. For what reason? Because the water is limpid. So too, it is possible for a bhikkhu with a limpid mind to know his own good, the good of others, and the good of both, and to realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. For what reason? Because his mind is limpid.”

47
“Bhikkhus, just as sandalwood is declared to be the best of trees with respect to malleability and wieldiness, so too I do not see even one other thing that, when developed and cultivated, is so malleable and wieldy as the mind. A developed and cultivated mind is malleable and wieldy.”

48
“Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes.”
Last edited by not myself today on Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by not myself today »

more notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

“For what reason? Because his mind is cloudy.”
Mp: “Cloudy (āvilena): enveloped by the five hindrances.” At 5:193 §5 cloudy water is specifically identified with doubt and limpid water with freedom from doubt.
“Again, when one dwells with a mind obsessed and oppressed by doubt, and one does not understand as it really is the escape from arisen doubt, on that occasion one does not know and see as it really is one’s own good, the good of others, and the good of both. Then even those hymns that have been recited over a long period do not recur to the mind, let alone those that have not been so recited. Suppose there were a bowl of water that is cloudy, turbid, and muddy, placed in the dark. If a man with good sight were to examine his own facial reflection in it, he would not know and see it as it really is. So too, when one dwells with a mind obsessed and oppressed by doubt, and one does not understand as it really is the escape from arisen doubt, on that occasion one does not know and see as it really is one’s own good, the good of others, and the good of both. Then even those hymns that have been recited over a long period do not recur to the mind, let alone those that have not been so recited.”

...

“Again, when one dwells with a mind that is not obsessed and oppressed by doubt, and one understands as it really is the escape from arisen doubt, on that occasion one knows and sees as it really is one’s own good, the good of others, and the good of both. [...] Suppose there were a bowl of water that is clear, serene, and limpid, placed in the light. If a man with good sight were to examine his own facial reflection in it, he would know and see it as it really is. So too, when one dwells with a mind that is not obsessed and oppressed by doubt, and one understands as it really is the escape from arisen doubt, on that occasion one knows and sees as it really is one’s own good, the good of others, and the good of both...”
“So too, it is possible for a bhikkhu with a limpid mind to know his own good, the good of others, and the good of both, and to realize a superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.”
Uttariṃ manussadhammā alamariyañāṇadassanavisesaṃ. I follow Mp, which treats uttariṃ manussadhammā as a complex ablative phrase relative to alamariyañāṇadassanavisesaṃ. Mp says: “Superhuman: superior to the human virtue consisting in the ten courses of wholesome kamma. For this tenfold virtue is called ‘human virtue’ because it is undertaken by people on their own—even without anyone to encourage them—after they have been stirred at the end of ‘the period of swords’ (satthantarakappa; see DN III 73,4). The things superior to this are the jhānas, insight, the path, and the fruit. Distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones: the distinction [excellence] consisting in knowledge and vision that is fitting for the noble ones or able to produce the noble state. Knowledge itself is called ‘knowledge’ in that it knows, and it is called ‘vision’ in that it sees. This is a designation for the knowledge of the divine eye, insight knowledge, path knowledge, fruition knowledge, and reviewing knowledge.”
(if i could figure out how to locate DN III 73,4 i would include it here, but my understanding of the layout of the DN is insufficient to the task. :shrug: )
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nor what they did or failed to do,
but in oneself should be sought
things done, things left undone.

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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by santa100 »

suttacentral.net provides references for both sutta ids and vol/page. The excerpt on the "period of swords" is from DN 26:
Among such humans, brethren, there will arise a sword-period of seven days, during which they will look on each other as wild beasts; sharp swords will appear ready to their hands, and they, thinking ‘This is a wild beast, this is a wild beast,’ will with their swords deprive each other of life.
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by not myself today »

santa100 wrote:suttacentral.net provides references for both sutta ids and vol/page. The excerpt on the "period of swords" is from DN 26:
Among such humans, brethren, there will arise a sword-period of seven days, during which they will look on each other as wild beasts; sharp swords will appear ready to their hands, and they, thinking ‘This is a wild beast, this is a wild beast,’ will with their swords deprive each other of life.
thank you, santa. i tried every which way to find the section using variations on "dniii" and such and came up empty; silly me, it never occurred to me to just search "period of swords"... :roll:

...aha...and having tried it now, i see that that doesn't work either. the only way i could find it was to search "satthantarakappa" to identify the section, go back to the index thingy to get to that same section in English, and then use my browser's "find" function to search for "period".

maybe there's a jhana that, once attained, will allow me to fathom how "DN III 73,4" equals "DN 26"...
Ian

Not in the faults of others
nor what they did or failed to do,
but in oneself should be sought
things done, things left undone.

- Dhammapada 4.50
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by Kaneki »

“Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes.”

Is this supposed to hold relevance to the rest of the suttas? I don't understand what this sutta is pointing at. I understand it in it's simplicity, that the mind changes quickly, but what can I gain from this sutta by itself and/or in relation to the rest?
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by santa100 »

not myself today wrote:the only way i could find it was to search "satthantarakappa" to identify the section, go back to the index thingy to get to that same section in English, and then use my browser's "find" function to search for "period".
If you click on the suttacentral link I provided, then scroll down toward the end of the page, you'll see that DN 26 maps to DN iii 58, which means it starts at PTS Volume 3, page 58. Then DN 27 maps to DN iii 80, which means it starts at PTS Volume 3, page 80. Hence PTS iii 73 belongs to DN 26.
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by mikenz66 »

Kaneki wrote:“Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing that changes so quickly as the mind. It is not easy to give a simile for how quickly the mind changes.”

Is this supposed to hold relevance to the rest of the suttas? I don't understand what this sutta is pointing at. I understand it in it's simplicity, that the mind changes quickly, ...
So you're OK with one or other of the explanations here?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 16#p376994
Kaneki wrote: but what can I gain from this sutta by itself and/or in relation to the rest?
They are considered to be separate suttas, but they are grouped together because they are about the mind. Sometimes the ones they are grouped with are very thematic, such as these here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26097
but of the four presented here, the first two are an obvious pair, but the last two do not appear to be particularly related. I Just grouped them together to get through them faster...

:anjali:
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Re: AN 1.45-1.48. Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water. Mudu Sutta: Soft. Lahu-parivatta Sutta: Quick to Reverse Itself

Post by santa100 »

Kaneki wrote:Is this supposed to hold relevance to the rest of the suttas? I don't understand what this sutta is pointing at. I understand it in it's simplicity, that the mind changes quickly, but what can I gain from this sutta by itself and/or in relation to the rest?
AN 1.45-1.48 reflect various properties/states of the mind:
1. Muddy(1.45, when enveloped by the Five Hindrances),
2. Clear(1.46, free from the Hindrances),
3. Soft/Pliant (1.47, when developed and cultivated)
4. Quick to reverse (1.48, 2 separate meanings per the Comy.:
  • i. The extreme speed with which the mind arises and vanishes,
    ii. A monk might suddenly change his mind, ie. giving up the celibate life to submit to the charms of a woman)
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