🟥 Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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SDC
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Our last visit with Raṭṭhapāla. Once again we find him speaking very directly to his father; here on the matter of begging and giving. It is unclear whether this is before or after his arahantship, but no doubt after his going forth. (There is not much before this excerpt to give context to this brief exchange between father and son other than three other stories about obtaining items by the means of begging, and the effect it has on those doing the giving. The rule that is recited has to do with the construction of huts.)



The training rule on building huts Pli Tv Vb Ss 6

  • ...“The father of Raṭṭhapāla, monks, once spoke to his son with this verse:

    ‘All these people, Raṭṭhāpāla,
    Who come to me and beg—
    I don’t even know them.
    So why don’t you beg from me?’

    ‘The beggar isn’t liked,
    Nor is he who doesn’t give when asked.
    That’s why I do not beg from you;
    Please don’t hate me for this.’

    If Raṭṭhapāla, who came from a good family, could speak like this to his own father, how much more, then, can people do so to each other.

    It’s hard, monks, for lay people to acquire and protect their possessions. And still, foolish men, you kept on asking and begging for all sorts of things. This will not give rise to confidence in those without it … And, monks, this training rule should be recited like this:

    ‘When a monk, by means of begging, builds a hut without a sponsoring owner and intended for himself, it is to be no more than twelve standard handspans long and seven wide inside. He must get monks to approve a site where no harm will be done and which has a space on all sides. If a monk, by means of begging, builds a hut on a site where harm will be done and which lacks a space on all sides, or he does not get monks to approve the site, or he exceeds the right size, he commits an offense entailing suspension.’” "



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SDC
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Final thoughts on Raṭṭhapāla?





(This thread will be open until Sunday, April 11, before we move on to the next selection.)


Thanks to everyone who has participated and made this first week of the Study Group a great pleasure! :smile:
JohnK
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

simonbl wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:16 am
(1) ‘Life in any world is unstable, it is swept away’
Impermanance, inconstancy.
With ageing being the great impermanence teacher...

(2) ‘Life in any world has no shelter and no protector’
Ultimately not in control. Subject to "universal forces".
"I cannot command..."

(3) ‘Life in any world has nothing of its own; one has to leave all and pass on’
Kamma;...

(4) ‘Life in any world is incomplete, insatiate, the slave of craving’...

Looking forward to any comments to my notes.
FWIW, I was thinking of them like this:
#1 - 3 as aspects of the "3 characteristics."
#1 -- anicca (as you say).
#2 -- dukkha -- the reality of dukkha -- I've got it, and I can't order it onto someone else.
#3 -- anatta -- especially the "mine" aspect (the venerable does not emphasize the "I, me" aspect).
#4 -- the first Noble Truth (he's been talking about dukkha all along), AND he now adds the second.

Regarding #3, recall that the venerable is reporting on what motivated him to go forth (vs. the Dhamma in full). So, it makes some sense that one might see the "not mine" before one sees any "not-self." "Not mine" is also something the king might get a sense of vs. a full-on "not-self" explanation -- just my take on it.

Also interesting is "life in any world." As there is a cessation of craving and dukkha, it must not occur "in any world" -- presumably any "world" being a fabrication, with liberation being beyond such fabrication.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:53 pm :reading:

The foremost of my monk disciples who went forth out of faith is Raṭṭhapāla. -AN 1.210

I would like to start off with a scriptural profile of Raṭṭhapāla. Born into the leading brahmin family in the town of Thullakoṭṭhita, a young Raṭṭhapāla wishes to go forth upon hearing the Buddha speak. After initially refusing to grant permission, his parents are eventually persuaded to consent to his going forth. A personal favorite of mine, MN 82 is an account of the events of Raṭṭhapāla's formative years as a monk, his return home to see his family and a discussion with a king.

I've opted to split MN 82 into four parts (separated by some notes of mine) since the setting changes several times. First is his encounter with the Dhamma: a talk delivered by the Buddha; second is his going forth; third is his return home after attaining arahantship; fourth and final is a stimulating discussion with King Koravya.

Following MN 82 will be two additional texts to round off this profile. Look for those in the coming days.

Enjoy.
Can you participate until what day?

will it be only a week?

I need to read again ..

but I really liked this Sutta.

I remember that I also heard a podcast about this Sutta, and the author draws attention to the originality of this Sutta, as it has a slightly different pattern than the other Suttas.

:anjali:
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Post by sunnat »

It is a sutta that starts with 'thus have I heard' which indicates it is recited by Ananda from direct memory of the events or from memory of what he was told after the event.

While it refers to a discourse delivered by The Buddha in the town of Thullakoṭṭhita there is no such sutta recorded in the Tipitaka. There are a number of suttas showing that there were visits and stays in Kuru, but none other than mention Thullakoṭṭhita. It's about 2 - 3 walking days between Kammāssadhamma (where a number of important discourses were delivered) and Thullakoṭṭhita.
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:07 am Can you participate until what day?

will it be only a week?
Hi Lucas, the thread will open until Sunday. After that it will be locked and we will move on to the next selection.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SDC wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:19 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:07 am Can you participate until what day?

will it be only a week?
Hi Lucas, the thread will open until Sunday. After that it will be locked and we will move on to the next selection.
And beyond that, if there's any aspect of the topic that you feel remains unexplored, or that you'd like to run with further, feel free to create your own topic in the General Theravada section or wherever makes most sense, and cross reference the materials in question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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SDC
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:33 am Greetings,
SDC wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:19 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:07 am Can you participate until what day?

will it be only a week?
Hi Lucas, the thread will open until Sunday. After that it will be locked and we will move on to the next selection.
And beyond that, if there's any aspect of the topic that you feel remains unexplored, or that you'd like to run with further, feel free to create your own topic in the General Theravada section or wherever makes most sense, and cross reference the materials in question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Absolutely, Paul. Thank you for mentioning that.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Profile: Raṭṭhapāla (Week of April 4, 2021)

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

SDC wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:19 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:33 am
:thanks:

:anjali:
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