Glad to hear it the three worked together well!
And thank you for the additional excerpts from SN 56!
"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Right View comes first .."And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It was as if the Buddha was speaking to me his most important Teaching."Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.
"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.
"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
The man returns to the city and tells a crowd of people."I must be nuts"A man sits by a lotus pond thinking
"I will reflect about the world" he reflects, then bhikkhus the man saw a four division army entering a lotus stalk...having seen this he thought "I must be mad!
I must be insane! i've seen something that doesn't exist in the world.
He repeats what he saw,"How so? How are you insane?"
Buddha continues"Nevertheless, Bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real,
not unreal" "Once in the past the devas and the Asuras were arrayed in battle,
in that battle the devas won, and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat the Asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk,
to the bewilderment of the devas"
The sutta ends in the usual Saccasamyutta way."Therefore bhikkhus, do not reflect about the world thinking stuff like "is Tathagata for real? Does he exist after death etc...Is the world eternal? not eternal? etc"
Buddha is informing us, reflecting on anything else is a fruitless endeavour,Reflect only on the 4 Noble Truths. For what reason? Only this reflection is beneficial, and is relevant to the fundamentals of holy life. Therefore exert, meditate.
You are not alone. Bhikkhu Bodhi says "...strangely, it turns out that the man is not really mad."Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm A question on a sutta in Saccasamyutta, it would be nice if you can help me out...
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/sujato
Not sure if relevant but I noticed many of them end withSDC wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:47 pmThat’s a good find!JohnK wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:33 pm From SN56.19:So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").In this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant. Here’s SN 56.1. I agree with you, John that there is a high degree of consistency - certainly makes for inspiring reading.
Perhaps part of Ihaving right view is having present that this action of making an exertion to understand is required?“... Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
mjaviem wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:43 amNot sure if relevant but I noticed many of them end with
Perhaps part of Ihaving right view is having present that this action of making an exertion to understand is required?“... Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
There is no objective reality. What is "real" for some is not "real" for others. Some see spirits or ghosts. The Australian aborigine sees the world differently from we do. The worlds are mind created. Hence you can never be "sure". But what you can be sure of is the 4NT/8FP.Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm A question on a sutta in Saccasamyutta, it would be nice if you can help me out. It is a study group, kind of private, even though the public might read us.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/sujato
But Buddha saysBuddha continues"Nevertheless, Bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real,
not unreal" "Once in the past the devas and the Asuras were arrayed in battle,
in that battle the devas won, and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat the Asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk,
to the bewilderment of the devas"The sutta ends in the usual Saccasamyutta way."Therefore bhikkhus, do not reflect about the world thinking stuff like "is Tathagata for real? Does he exist after death etc...Is the world eternal? not eternal? etc"
Then Rohitassa, the son of a deva, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he stood to one side. As he was standing there he said to the Blessed One: "Is it possible, lord, by traveling, to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away or reappear?"
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos[dukkha], the origination of the cosmos[dukkha], the cessation of the cosmos[dukkha], and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos[dukkha]."
you wroteIn this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
Again my apologies, for misreading this."That’s a good find"!
Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant.
BB translated the conclusion of each sutta in a more elaborate manner which appealed to others."one must meditate"
No apologies necessary, Pulsar. It was my suggestion to explore SN 56 further, but then I realized the topic may grow too big. Your participation is very much valued and appreciated, and I will make the scope clearer next time I post a cluster of suttas.
Well said.
I would certainly say that just a bit can get you started and that seems to be the what the run and circle of MN 117 refers to (that is would keep needing to be refined based on more and more discernment), but the suttas do not seem to align with what this person was claiming. Perhaps he was conflating sammādiṭṭhi with samādhi?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:33 pm Greetings,
Well said.
I've not got much to add other than that there's a formerly prolific Dhamma Wheel poster who repeatedly used to post something to the effect that "you only need just enough Right View to do 'the practice'".
I presume that was what was meant. The suttas we're considering here say quite explicitly.