🟩 “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

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SDC
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:44 pm Nicely choreographed presentation...
Glad to hear it the three worked together well!

And thank you for the additional excerpts from SN 56!
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by pegembara »

Right view comes first and all the way to the end.

More on right view.
"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

"And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Right View comes first ..

this statement makes clear how important the 4 Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path are.

Last year at the end of my daily meditation I liked to contemplate 4NT and 8FP.

I would look at the Buddha image and read it in my mind.
"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.

"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.

"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.

"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
It was as if the Buddha was speaking to me his most important Teaching.

this year I made a small change in my meditation.

but soon I want to return to this practice of contemplating 4NT and 8FP at the end of daily meditation.

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

A question on a sutta in Saccasamyutta, it would be nice if you can help me out. It is a study group, kind of private, even though the public might read us.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/sujato
Sutta gets the title Reflections about the World by BB
Here is my personal dilemma, i have visited this sutta several times, 5 yrs ago,  2 yr ago etc, 
sutta always baffles me, and now i am reading it again thanks to SDC, I wish vinasp was here, i loved his posts? he claimed 'a sutta is a secret', Is this sutta a secret? 
or is Buddha joking? is he being facetious? 
Background to the sutta, edited:
A man sits by a lotus pond thinking
"I will reflect about the world" he reflects, then bhikkhus the man saw a four division army entering a lotus stalk...having seen this he thought "I must be mad!
I must be insane! i've seen something that doesn't exist in the world.
The man returns to the city and tells a crowd of people."I must be nuts"
Crowd queries
"How so? How are you insane?"
He repeats what he saw,
and on hearing the crowd concurs
that he is insane, what he describes does not exist in the world.
But Buddha says
"Nevertheless, Bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real,
not unreal" "Once in the past the devas and the Asuras were arrayed in battle,
in that battle the devas won, and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat the Asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk,
to the bewilderment of the devas"
Buddha continues 
"Therefore bhikkhus, do not reflect about the world thinking stuff like "is Tathagata for real? Does he exist after death etc...Is the world eternal? not eternal? etc"
The sutta ends in the usual Saccasamyutta way.
Reflect only on the 4 Noble Truths. For what reason? Only this reflection is beneficial, and is relevant to the fundamentals of holy life. Therefore exert, meditate.
Buddha is informing us, reflecting on anything else is a fruitless endeavour,
not conducive to the end of suffering.
What is the point of the story, where the Asuras exit via a lotus stalk, to escape the gods?
Why did the Buddha say it really happened?  
I am beginning to see the sutta clearer as I formulate the question for the study group, but I am not sure.
Thanks to anyone who takes time to read and help me out.
With love  :candle:
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Post by sunnat »

'help me out'?

"So mendicants, don’t speculate about the world. For example: the cosmos is eternal, or not eternal, or finite, or infinite; the soul and the body are the same thing, or they are different things; after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Why is that? Because those thoughts aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.

[What is the point of the story,...]

When you think something up, you should think: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. Why is that? Because those thoughts are beneficial and relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.

That’s why you should practice meditation …”
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm A question on a sutta in Saccasamyutta, it would be nice if you can help me out...
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/sujato
You are not alone. Bhikkhu Bodhi says "...strangely, it turns out that the man is not really mad."
And Ven. Sujato says it is a "curious tale." Emphasis added.
Apparently the Buddha said it really happened because it did really happen -- he didn't lie; some magic was done, per Bhikkhu Bodhi's note, "Spk: It is said that the asuras had applied the Sambari magic (see 11:23) and resolved that the man would see them." Spk refers to a commentary on the SN (which I know nothing about).

Just sharing a few thoughts:
It makes me think a bit of Ajahn Chah's "not sure" -- You may see something that is real and think it is not; you may see something that is not real and think it is. You may think something and think it is true when it is not; or think that it is not true when it is -- perhaps best not to be too darn sure.
Or you may have an insight that goes against preconceived notions and think you are nuts, and others may agree with you, even when it is true -- it merely goes against the stream.
Seeing this strange event did not do anything to help the man, so even if, while speculating about the world, you happen to see something "magical," it may not be any help on the path. And as the sutta says, best not to bother.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:47 pm
JohnK wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:33 pm From SN56.19:
In this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
That’s a good find!

Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant. Here’s SN 56.1. I agree with you, John that there is a high degree of consistency - certainly makes for inspiring reading.
Not sure if relevant but I noticed many of them end with
“... Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
Perhaps part of Ihaving right view is having present that this action of making an exertion to understand is required?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:43 am
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:47 pm
JohnK wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:33 pm From SN56.19:

So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
That’s a good find!

Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant. Here’s SN 56.1. I agree with you, John that there is a high degree of consistency - certainly makes for inspiring reading.
Not sure if relevant but I noticed many of them end with
“... Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
Perhaps part of Ihaving right view is having present that this action of making an exertion to understand is required?
:thumbsup:

The suttas talk about “effort”, “training”, “exertion” and “repetition”, not to mention a “wearing away” of defilements, so I definitely think it is a requirement.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by pegembara »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm A question on a sutta in Saccasamyutta, it would be nice if you can help me out. It is a study group, kind of private, even though the public might read us.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/sujato

But Buddha says
"Nevertheless, Bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real,
not unreal" "Once in the past the devas and the Asuras were arrayed in battle,
in that battle the devas won, and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat the Asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk,
to the bewilderment of the devas"
Buddha continues 
"Therefore bhikkhus, do not reflect about the world thinking stuff like "is Tathagata for real? Does he exist after death etc...Is the world eternal? not eternal? etc"
The sutta ends in the usual Saccasamyutta way.
There is no objective reality. What is "real" for some is not "real" for others. Some see spirits or ghosts. The Australian aborigine sees the world differently from we do. The worlds are mind created. Hence you can never be "sure". But what you can be sure of is the 4NT/8FP.

The way out as it were is through the 4NT/8FP.

That was the advice given to Rohitassa. Doesn't matter what realm.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Then Rohitassa, the son of a deva, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he stood to one side. As he was standing there he said to the Blessed One: "Is it possible, lord, by traveling, to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away or reappear?"
"I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos[dukkha], the origination of the cosmos[dukkha], the cessation of the cosmos[dukkha], and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos[dukkha]."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

All, if we could just remember to keep things a bit closer to the suttas in OP it would be much appreciated.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest SDC, my apologies if I distracted the study group,
by bringing in SN 56. 41. When I read your response to JohnK, I interpreted it to mean, study group folks can bring in any sutta from the Saccasamyutta.
I had some difficulties with SN 56.41, and I thought it was fair to bring it in. Thanks to the friends Sunnat, JohnK and pegembara who offered helpful comments, that difficulty is resolved.  Below is what I misinterpreted. In response to JohnK From SN56.19:
In this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
you wrote
"That’s a good find"!
Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant.
Again my apologies, for misreading this.
To come back to the two suttas OP posted, and limiting discussion to those, I was struck by the different ways in which Ven. Bodhi and Ven. Sujatho translated the conclusion to the suttas.
Ven. Sujatho concluded each sutta with 
"one must meditate"
BB translated the conclusion of each sutta in a more elaborate manner which appealed to others.
Meditation or Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi, are the ways to the Noble truths. Simplicity works best at times. And thanks to you dear SDC,
since you combined the two suttas with MN 117 and explained so well in your post, the difference between right and wrong, I realized we begin our meditation thinking it is the right meditation,
and when it does not bear fruit wonder why it has not borne fruit. At that point we switch to right meditation. Had we not taken the wrong step, we wouldn't have known how to correct it.
It was only a short 2 years ago that I realized I was doing Samma Sati the wrong way, and managed to correct it, and that helped straighten Samma Samadhi more so. MN 117 in this sense is the most valuable sutta in the canon, in that it stresses the wrong and the right paths.
With love :candle:
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:53 am Dearest SDC, my apologies if I distracted the study group,
by bringing in SN 56. 41...
No apologies necessary, Pulsar. It was my suggestion to explore SN 56 further, but then I realized the topic may grow too big. Your participation is very much valued and appreciated, and I will make the scope clearer next time I post a cluster of suttas.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:31 am I found the above in MN 117 to be a good companion to the description in SN 56.37 of Right View as both “forerunner” (pubbaṅgamaṁ) and “precursor” (pubbanimittaṁ) to the breakthrough to the four noble truths.
Well said.

I've not got much to add other than that there's a formerly prolific Dhamma Wheel poster who repeatedly used to post something to the effect that "you only need just enough Right View to do 'the practice'".

This was a highly unfortunate view since "the practice" ought to be to cultivate Right View, such that it can be both the precursor and forerunner to breaking through to stream entry and beyond. To forego further cultivation of Right View, to go and instead do something else called "the practice" ultimately results in failure, since if one had Right View, such folly would not even be entertained.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:33 pm Greetings,
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:31 am I found the above in MN 117 to be a good companion to the description in SN 56.37 of Right View as both “forerunner” (pubbaṅgamaṁ) and “precursor” (pubbanimittaṁ) to the breakthrough to the four noble truths.
Well said.

I've not got much to add other than that there's a formerly prolific Dhamma Wheel poster who repeatedly used to post something to the effect that "you only need just enough Right View to do 'the practice'".
I would certainly say that just a bit can get you started and that seems to be the what the run and circle of MN 117 refers to (that is would keep needing to be refined based on more and more discernment), but the suttas do not seem to align with what this person was claiming. Perhaps he was conflating sammādiṭṭhi with samādhi?
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:41 pm I would certainly say that just a bit can get you started and that seems to be the what the run and circle of MN 117 refers to (that is would keep needing to be refined based on more and more discernment), ...
I presume that was what was meant. The suttas we're considering here say quite explicitly.

:heart:
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