🟩 “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

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🟩 “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

A plan to post one sutta turned into three :embarassed: . Hoping the result is still useful for a single study session. A pair of short suttas from the Sacca Saṁyutta with a portion of MN 117 (and a few notes) sandwiched in between.

(There was single note from the translator from SN 56.37 regarding an agreement between Roman and Sinhalese scripts; there are none for 56.44.)

Enjoy.


Paṭhamasūriyasutta (The Sun) SN 56.37 (SN v 442)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as the really are, that is, right view. It is to be expected that a bhikkhu with right view will understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’… ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

    Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
    • End of SN 56.37
=============================================

Notes:

MN 117
...
Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right view.
...
One makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view: this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.
I found the above in MN 117 to be a good companion to the description in SN 56.37 of Right View as both “forerunner” (pubbaṅgamaṁ) and “precursor” (pubbanimittaṁ) to the breakthrough to the four noble truths.

A similar notion is expressed below in SN 56.44; the breakthrough to the 4NT serving as a basis to the a complete end of suffering; the arrangement is clarified by comparing the relationship to that of a first floor being the basis of a second.

==============================================

Kūṭāgārasutta (Peaked House) SN 56.44 (SN v 452)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • “Bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the origin of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the cessation of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering as it really is, I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is impossible.

    “Just as, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus, ‘Without having built the lower storey of a peaked house, I will erect the upper storey,’ this would be impossible; so too, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is… I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is impossible.

    “But, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the origin of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the cessation of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering as it really is, I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is possible.

    “Just as, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having built the lower storey of a peaked house, I will erect the upper storey,’ this would be possible; so too, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is… I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is possible.

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.”
    • End SN 56.44
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?
  • What about the relationships described above?
  • What about this from MN 117:
    Itiyime tayo dhammā sammādiṭṭhiṁ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti, seyyathidaṁ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.
    Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.
Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by DooDoot »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:31 am
Itiyime tayo dhammā sammādiṭṭhiṁ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti, seyyathidaṁ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.
Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.
Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:
It appears the phrase: these three states (Itiyime tayo dhammā) - right view, right effort & right mindfulness (sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati) - run and circle around (anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti) is found with every factor the noble path. In other words, it appears right view, right effort & right mindfulness accompany the practice of each factor of the path.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by mikenz66 »

SN 56.37 gives a very inspiring image. But I can't help thinking that it sounds circular. You need right view to understand the noble truths, but right view is understanding the truths...
“And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the origin of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called right view.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/bodhi
So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as the really are, that is, right view. It is to be expected that a bhikkhu with right view will understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’… ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.37/en/bodhi
I guess the first sentence above is the key:
Bodhi: ... this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are, that is, right view.
Sujato: In the same way, right view is the forerunner and precursor of truly comprehending the four noble truths.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno catunnaṁ ariyasaccānaṁ yathābhūtaṁ abhisamayāya etaṁ pubbaṅgamaṁ etaṁ pubbanimittaṁ, yadidaṁ—sammādiṭṭhi.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 am ... I can't help thinking that it sounds circular. You need right view to understand the noble truths, but right view is understanding the truths...
...
B. Bhodhi wrote:[...
Perplexity sometimes arises over an apparent inconsistency in the arrangement of the path factors and the threefold training. Wisdom — which includes right view and right intention — is the last stage in the threefold training, yet its factors are placed at the beginning of the path rather than at its end, as might be expected according to the canon of strict consistency. The sequence of the path factors, however, is not the result of a careless slip, but is determined by an important logistical consideration, namely, that right view and right intention of a preliminary type are called for at the outset as the spur for entering the threefold training. Right view provides the perspective for practice, right intention the sense of direction. But the two do not expire in this preparatory role. For when the mind has been refined by the training in moral discipline and concentration, it arrives at a superior right view and right intention, which now form the proper training in the higher wisdom.

Right view is the forerunner of the entire path, the guide for all the other factors. It enables us to understand our starting point, our destination, and the successive landmarks to pass as practice advances...
And if you are wondering how the Dhamma plays out in daily life vs in meditation, I think the first helps with mundane right view and the second with supramundane right view.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

Right view being the forerunner applies to both mundane and supramundane right view, but presents the practitioner with two functions:

1- In the context of gradual training, right view as the forerunner teaches the practitioner right grasp through avoiding the extremes, the breakthrough is knowing the middle path

2- In the context of the three marks of existence, it teaches to differentiate between sankhara and dhamma, the breakthrough is knowing dhammas.

3- In the context of the four noble truths, right view is the first factor in the noble eight-fold path, the breakthrough is knowing kamma, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to cessation.

4- In the context of DO, right view begins by avoiding the extremes of existence and non-existence (eternalism vs annihilationism) and the breakthrough being knowing DO in reverse order and/or knowing cessation.

Dividing right view into right view with asavas and without in MN117 serves the same purpose. Before attaining the supramundane path, right and wrong take the form of polarity which could explain the resistance many practitioners show towards MN117 describing it as inauthentic. The polarity has to do with the law of non-contradiction and its role in justifying conditioned phenomena. Under this state of affairs, dividing right view serves no purpose except a continuation of introducing more polarities ad-infinitum. However, not dividing right view would make sankhara and dhamma indistinguishable.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

I like the simple logic of the peaked house (and it doesn't bring up the noted "right view" complexity).
It simply makes the essential dhamma statement that understanding the Truths is essential for ending suffering.
It then says, therefore, make an effort to understand the Truths -- don't think you can somehow build the second floor first -- very simple logic -- right up my alley!

Following this simple logic, one might expect in the Sun Sutta, that the exertion would be made to establish right view -- the forerunner or "first floor." However, almost all suttas in SN56 end with the same conclusion: that an effort should made to understand the Truths. So there is a consistency in the instruction across the samyutta that is powerful and essential. We are being presented with all these suttas with subtle differences in exposition, but they are all being told for the same reason: instructing us to make an exertion to understand the Truths.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:10 am In other words, it appears right view, right effort & right mindfulness accompany the practice of each factor of the path.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:08 am But I can't help thinking that it sounds circular. You need right view to understand the noble truths, but right view is understanding the truths...
mjaviem wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:08 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: Right view is the forerunner of the entire path, the guide for all the other factors. It enables us to understand our starting point, our destination, and the successive landmarks to pass as practice advances...
... I think the first helps with mundane right view and the second with supramundane right view.
Bundokji wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:24 am In the context of gradual training, right view as the forerunner teaches the practitioner right grasp through avoiding the extremes, the breakthrough is knowing the middle path
...
Seems like everyone is in the same vicinity.

This sutta comes to mind:
AN 8.19 wrote:...
Just as, Pahārāda, the great ocean slants, slopes, and inclines gradually, not dropping off abruptly, so too, in this Dhamma and discipline penetration to final knowledge occurs by gradual training, gradual activity, and gradual practice, not abruptly.
...
Perhaps MN 117 is describing this gradual work? The development from wrong view to right view with āsavas (defilements) to right view free from āsavas?
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:52 pm Perhaps MN 117 is describing this gradual work? The development from wrong view to right view with āsavas (defilements) to right view free from āsavas?
One could also ask: what is the difference between siding with merit, and siding with eternalism? considering that the Buddha could have divided views into: wrong view with āsavas, wrong view (without āsavas) and right view.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

From SN56.19:
In this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by SDC »

JohnK wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:33 pm From SN56.19:
In this statement, 'This is the noble truth of suffering,' there are innumerable nuances, innumerable details, innumerable implications. [same for the other three truths]
So, perhaps this development of right view is seeing these more and more (to "breakthrough").
That’s a good find!

Everyone should feel free to work through SN 56 and bring in what sounds relevant. Here’s SN 56.1. I agree with you, John that there is a high degree of consistency - certainly makes for inspiring reading.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by asahi »

Hi forum ,

Fyi MN117 parallel MA189 when describing the noble eight fold path didnt divide into two fold . However imo , the trainings can be divided into two phase . First phase or mundane phase starting with mundane faith leading to mundane right view . The practice continues until one started to practice the right mindfulness through which it couple with mundane right concentration and accordingly one attains the superior right view , as such this is to be taken as advancing into the second phase or beginning of the supramundane phase . At this juncture , the noble right view at second phase is the Actual Precursor or Forerunner of the path .


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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by pegembara »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:31 am :reading:


Paṭhamasūriyasutta (The Sun) SN 56.37 (SN v 442)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as the really are, that is, right view. It is to be expected that a bhikkhu with right view will understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’… ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

    Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
    • End of SN 56.37
=============================================

Notes:

MN 117
...
Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one’s right view.
...
One makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view: this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus these three states run and circle around right view, that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.
I found the above in MN 117 to be a good companion to the description in SN 56.37 of Right View as both “forerunner” (pubbaṅgamaṁ) and “precursor” (pubbanimittaṁ) to the breakthrough to the four noble truths.

A similar notion is expressed below in SN 56.44; the breakthrough to the 4NT serving as a basis to the a complete end of suffering; the arrangement is clarified by comparing the relationship to that of a first floor being the basis of a second.

==============================================

Kūṭāgārasutta (Peaked House) SN 56.44 (SN v 452)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • “Bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the origin of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the cessation of suffering as it really is, without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering as it really is, I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is impossible.

    “Just as, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus, ‘Without having built the lower storey of a peaked house, I will erect the upper storey,’ this would be impossible; so too, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Without having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is… I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is impossible.

    “But, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the origin of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the cessation of suffering as it really is, having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering as it really is, I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is possible.

    “Just as, bhikkhus, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having built the lower storey of a peaked house, I will erect the upper storey,’ this would be possible; so too, if anyone should speak thus: ‘Having made the breakthrough to the noble truth of suffering as it really is… I will completely make an end to suffering’—this is possible.

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.”
    • End SN 56.44
This Right View refers to the opening of the Dhamma Eye or "supramundane" right view.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Seems like I've also read of the progression: sila, samadhi, panna.
Sorry, no sutta reference -- I hope that is ok in the study group.
If right view "comes first" in the context of each path factor, including the sila factors, what does that suggest regarding sila among those who hold some form of wrong view? For them, the kammic results of strong sila presumably still hold, e.g., lack of remorse, and perhaps even hearing the dhamma. I suppose in this case it is not yet "right" sila as it is not informed by right view. So, I guess right view "comes first" on the path, but not necessarily first in what leads to the path. I suppose I just answered my own question.

Edit: And effects once on the path, e.g., lack of remorse while engaging in right concentration.
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Re: “Right View comes first”: SN 56.37, SN 56.44, dash of MN 117 (Week of April 11, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Nicely choreographed presentation, using two suttas from Sacca Samyutta and the omnipresent MN 117, to remind us what we might be doing wrong, as we struggle to right our wrong view. I like the excerpt from MN 117 One makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view: this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this is one’s right mindfulness.
Dearest SDC, you brought in the sun sutta, too.
Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn.
  • Dawn as a metaphor for Right view
The same samyutta refers to a Darkness more frightful  SN 56.46.
Summary 
Bhikkhus, there are world interstices, vacant, more abysmal,
regions of  blinding darkness and gloom, where the light of the sun and moon, so powerful and mighty, does not reach.
I naively thought "Who are the people that dwell in the pitch black of space?"
It could be me, who has still not got a complete handle on Right view.
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.46/en/sujato
Returning to the sutta: A listening bhikkhu inquires
"Is there any other darkness more frightful?"
The teacher replies
"those ascetics, bhikkhu, who do not understand as it really is, the 4 noble Truths"
Delving deeper into the sutta, the teaching is really about
"Those who can't  see the danger of volitional formations,"
were  they to recognize this danger, they will not seek sensual
pleasure in life, will not be corrupted, will not fall into the darkness, sorrow, despair.
They will be released from birth, old age, death, I say.
Bhikkhus! Therefore, here, 'This is suffering' should be worked on, and 'This is the path leading to suffering and destruction' should be worked on.
The sutta points to the importance of meditation, via dependent Origination. Only such a focus will enable the meditator to avoid unwholesome volition.
To make the story short, SN 56.51 The Fingernail writes 
once you gain the right view, Suffering that remains is similar to the soil trapped within a fingernail, compared to the soil of the great earth.
Thus we must strive towards Right View.
Saccasamyutta is rich with priceless teachings, kinda shocking, but without the shock many of us do not wake up. In our small chat groups we often claim
"I understand the 4 Noble truths",
if you think the following sutta is true, then all of us who claim so, are mistaken. Were we to be archers, will we be able to shoot the tip of a hair that has been split into seven strands? 
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.45/en/sujato
SN 56.45 Splitting hair (Synopsis) Background:
A number of Licchavi youths are practising archery, shooting through a small keyhole, shot after shot without missing.
Ananda is impressed.
Buddha is not, he uses archery to bring a truth home.  
He tells Ananda the skill of understanding suffering (plus 3 truths)
can only be compared to the skill of an archer who can shoot the tip of a hair split into seven strands.
Do we really think that we have this skill? perhaps through a keyhole?  
Meditation does not mean sitting on a mat only. This entire Samyutta can become one long contemplation, in a cool sort of way.
Thanks SDC, you did an excellent job. Serious Dhamma discussions are here to stay. 
With love :candle:
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