Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:46 pm
To clarify, I don’t think n&m is the most appropriate translation, but I do think it is sufficient it approximating a clearer meaning in contemplation. They should “conflate” the body with rūpa because the body “derived” from all four elements. I’m not sure why a separation is necessary. The body, “composed of elements” is out there in world with everything else and will become indistinguishable from the dust in the charnel ground (MN 10, 62). Earth is hardness or solidity and the way I read the contemplations in those two suttas is that the body is a form of those elements and a thorough revelation of those relationships and is critical to liberation. All in all I don’t think “matter” fails to emphasize this. That is just my take.
My final comment would be that I think the definition of "matter" muddies the waters and sets people off in the wrong direction of metaphysics and ontology.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:55 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:46 pm
To clarify, I don’t think n&m is the most appropriate translation, but I do think it is sufficient it approximating a clearer meaning in contemplation. They should “conflate” the body with rūpa because the body “derived” from all four elements. I’m not sure why a separation is necessary. The body, “composed of elements” is out there in world with everything else and will become indistinguishable from the dust in the charnel ground (MN 10, 62). Earth is hardness or solidity and the way I read the contemplations in those two suttas is that the body is a form of those elements and a thorough revelation of those relationships and is critical to liberation. All in all I don’t think “matter” fails to emphasize this. That is just my take.
My final comment would be that I think the definition of "matter" muddies the waters and sets people off in the wrong direction of metaphysics and ontology.
I don’t disagree, but so do dozens of other words and interpretations. In this case, it is good that relationship to the elements is well described in other suttas and that can prevent getting misled. Often finding another sutta can do the work of disqualifying wrong directions that are available on account of a rendering that was far too ambitious.
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:46 am
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:00 am Sīlabbataṁ vāpi pahāya sabbaṁ,
Kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṁ;
Suddhiṁ asuddhinti apatthayāno,
Virato care santimanuggahāya

6. But having abandoned all virtue and practice
and action, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.
Again, superficially read, without Dhamma knowledge, the above sounds like moral nihilism.
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:22 pm ....
Dear Venerable Dhammanando. Could you kindly comment on the Pali language used above and why the translations may give the impression of moral nihilism? Thank you
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by SDC »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:46 am
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:00 am Sīlabbataṁ vāpi pahāya sabbaṁ,
Kammañca sāvajjanavajjametaṁ;
Suddhiṁ asuddhinti apatthayāno,
Virato care santimanuggahāya

6. But having abandoned all virtue and practice
and action, whether blameworthy or blameless,
with no aspiration regarding “the pure and the impure”,
he would live unconcerned, not grasping after peace.
Again, superficially read, without Dhamma knowledge, the above sounds like moral nihilism.
DD, I’m wondering if it is meant in the sense of breaking the fetter of sīlabbata-parāmāsa, and also “cessation of action” described in SN 35.146? After a few readings that what came to mind. Certainly a bit cumbersome.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by Srilankaputra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:01 am Considering how many Pāli/English dictionaries base their definitions on Abhidhammic and commentarial ones that isn't surprising. It also isn't surprising that Ven. Bodhi prefers "matter" either, since he is an Abhidhammika. Regarding SN 22.57 you are correct to say that it defines rūpa as the 4 mahābhūta and the upādāya rūpa but seeing as how the 4 mahābhūta are closer to qualities than substances,
Hi,

This is not meant as a confrontation. But i think you are misinformed about the Abhidhamma. In the Abhidhamma, patavi, apo, thego and vayo are not separate substances. They are four interdependent dhammatas. Sometimes Abhidhamma teachers use the words 'kriya' or 'shakti' to emphasise this point.

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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by pegembara »

Having released the knots the Muni here in the world
does not take sides among those involved in quarrelling.
Peaceful among the unpeaceful, he is an onlooker,
not taking up where others take up
.
Unopposed to all things he has become,
whether those seen or heard or those thought about.
The Muni with burden laid down, completely freed
is not forming, not taking delight, not aspiring.
Whatever you pick up becomes your burden.
Want to be "perfect" and make sure none of the 227 bhikkhu precepts is broken?
Want to maintain the military dictatorship or fight for freedom from dictatorship?
The Muni is indeed freed from sankharas. Laid down the burden of sankharas.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

complicated to comment on a Sutta that talks about avoiding comments and discussions ..

but I think it's more about disputes ..

at the appropriate time, without disputing ideas, we can talk about the Dhamma.
SDC wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:01 am Thoughts?
  • The build up to the abandonment of sīlabbataṁ (virtue and practice) in verse six...do the two previous verses describe virtue as having been taken wrongly?
Looking forward to this week's discussions. :smile:
I think it's more about clinging to precepts and practices.

in verse 19 it seems to keep the precepts and practice without attachments.
19. Giving up old taints, not making new ones,
he does not go by desire nor speak out of belief.
He, the wise one, being freed from view-issues,
does not get stuck in the world and does not reproach himself.
sotāpanna:
Stream winner. A person who has abandoned the first three of the fetters that bind the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see saṃyojana) and has thus entered the "stream" flowing inexorably to nibbāna, ensuring that one will be reborn at most only seven more times, and only into human or higher realms. [MORE]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#sotapanna
arahant:
A "worthy one" or "pure one"; a person whose mind is free of defilement (see kilesa), who has abandoned all ten of the fetters that bind the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see saṃyojana), whose heart is free of mental effluents (see āsava), and who is thus not destined for further rebirth. A title for the Buddha and the highest level of his noble disciples.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#arahant
saṃyojana:
Fetter that binds the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see vaṭṭa) — self-identification views (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), uncertainty (vicikiccha), grasping at precepts and practices (sīlabbata-parāmāsa); sensual passion (kāma-rāga), resistance (vyāpāda); passion for form (rūpa-rāga), passion for formless phenomena (arūpa-rāga), conceit (māna), restlessness (uddhacca), and unawareness (avijjā). Compare anusaya.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#samyojana
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

I noticed when I read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of the Suta Nipata that, unlike the other chapters, he wrote a 10-page Introduction to Chapter 4. My old notes say that the introduction is an extended warning not to take the chapter as advocating "no views" on the path.

Brief excerpt: "There are right and wrong ways of grasping the Dhamma, but before letting it go, one must grasp it correctly in order to get the best use of it...the poems in the Atthaka also contains a handful of passages that present these paradoxes in mystifying ways. In fact, some of the paradoxes...are stated in terms so stark that, on the surface, they are hard to reconcile with teachings in other Pali suttas...Taken out of context, they seem to say that the path consists of no views, that it is a practice of no fixed practices and no goals, and that it is not even aimed at knowledge."
Here is his full intro to Chapter 4 in case there is interest.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/S ... intro.html
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: Mahāviyūhasutta Snp 4.13 (Week of April 18, 2021)

Post by SDC »

JohnK wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:36 pm I noticed when I read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of the Suta Nipata that, unlike the other chapters, he wrote a 10-page Introduction to Chapter 4. My old notes say that the introduction is an extended warning not to take the chapter as advocating "no views" on the path.

Brief excerpt: "There are right and wrong ways of grasping the Dhamma, but before letting it go, one must grasp it correctly in order to get the best use of it...the poems in the Atthaka also contains a handful of passages that present these paradoxes in mystifying ways. In fact, some of the paradoxes...are stated in terms so stark that, on the surface, they are hard to reconcile with teachings in other Pali suttas...Taken out of context, they seem to say that the path consists of no views, that it is a practice of no fixed practices and no goals, and that it is not even aimed at knowledge."
Here is his full intro to Chapter 4 in case there is interest.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/S ... intro.html
Many of the verses from Aṭṭhakavagga are certainly unique, can be cumbersome and seem open to interpretation at points. Snp 4.13 changes on a dime between critique of wrong views and praise of right views. Also it seems that the praise of the arahant goes even beyond right view and describes a surmounting of certain things and it can easily come off as a "no views" scenario. Especially verses 17 thru 20 could very well be seen as such, but it seems clear to me that this is in reference to the arahant, which if we bear in mind the simile of the raft, has no further need for Right View.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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