🟩 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Weeks of May 16 & 23, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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🟩 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Weeks of May 16 & 23, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Six selections this week, mix of prose and verse: Thag 1.29, SN 1.62, Dhp 33-43, AN 6.68, Thag 19.1 and DN 22. (AN 6.68 and DN 22, excerpts only).

The theme is citta (mind), and it is my hope that these descriptions stir up a meaning close to what can be found in experience. Two short verse texts Thag 1.29 and SN 1.62 to set the tone, followed by Dhp 33-43 (the verses that inspired this week’s theme); the excerpt of AN 6.68 to show the importance of picking up the cittassa nimitta (sign of the mind); Thag 19.1 is quite the powerful read...here we find the former dancer/actor Tālapuṭa addressing the mind, scolding it for the misleading nature it has displayed throughout eons of wandering the round; all culminating in DN 22, the description of how to contemplate citta.

Please take note we have multiple translators this week: Venerable bhikkhus Sujato, Bodhi, Ānandajoti and Akiñcano.

Enjoy. :smile:
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Khuddaka Nikāya
Theragāthā (Verses of the Elder Bhikkhus)
Ekakanipāta (Book of Ones)
Tatiyavagga (Chapter 3)
Hāritattheragāthā (Hārita (1st)) Thag 1.29
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato

  • Straighten yourself,
    like a fletcher straightens an arrow.
    When your mind is upright, Hārita,
    break ignorance to bits!

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Addhavagga
Cittasutta (Mind) SN 1.62 (SN i 39)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • “By what is the world led around?
    By what is it dragged here and there?
    What is the one thing that has
    All under its control?”

    “The world is led around by mind;
    By mind it’s dragged here and there.
    Mind is the one thing that has
    All under its control.”

Khuddaka Nikāya
Dhammapada
Cittavagga (The Mind) Dhp 33–43 (Dhp 10)
Translated by Bhikkhu Ānandajoti


  • 33. An agitated, unsteady mind, difficult to guard, difficult to ward,
    the sagacious one makes straight, as a fletcher does his arrow.

    34. Like a fish thrown up on dry land, pulled out from its watery home,
    the mind is agitated, one ought to throw off the sway of Māra.

    35. For the mind that is difficult to subdue, flighty, flitting wherever it will,
    restraint is good, a restrained mind brings happiness.

    36. Hard to see, very subtle, flitting wherever it will,
    the sage should guard the mind, a guarded mind brings happiness.

    37. Those who will restrain the mind that roams far,
    is lonesome, without a body, hidden, gain release from the bonds of Māra.

    38. For the one with unsettled mind, who does not know the True Dhamma,
    whose confidence is wavering, wisdom is unfulfilled.

    39. For the one with mind free of lust, for the one with mind unperplexed,
    for the one who has abandoned making merit and demerit, for the watchful, there is no fear.

    40. Knowing this body is frail like a jar,
    establishing the mind like a fortress,
    fight Māra with the weapon of wisdom,
    guard your success, and do not be attached.

    41. Before long has passed by, alas, this body will lie on the ground,
    rejected, without consciousness, just like a useless piece of wood.

    42. Whatever an aggressor might do to an aggressor, or an enemy to an enemy –
    a mind that is badly-directed can do far worse than that to him.

    43. Mother and father might not do for him, or other relatives,
    as much good as a mind that is well-directed can do for him.

Aṅguttara Nikāya
Chakkanipāto (Book of Sixes)
Devatāvagga (Chapter on Deities)
Saṅgaṇikārāmasutta (Delight in Company) AN 6.68 (AN iii 422)
Translated by Bhikkhu Akiñcano


  • ...
    Bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu who does not delight in company, who does not take pleasure in company, who does not engage in the delight in company, who does not delight in a crowd, who does not take pleasure in a crowd, who does not engage in the delight in a crowd; that he should enjoy being alone and secluded is a possibility. Enjoying being alone and secluded; that he should pick up the sign of mind is a possibility. Picking up the sign of mind; that he should fulfill right view is a possibility.
    ...

Khuddaka Nikāya
Theragāthā
Paññāsanipāta (Book of Fifties)
Paṭhamavagga (Chapter 1)
Tālapuṭattheragāthā (Tālapuṭa) Thag 19.1
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato

(Reference to “mind” as mano highlighted in red, all others citta. Link to the Pali)

  • Oh, when will I stay in a mountain cave,
    alone, with no companion,
    discerning all states of existence as impermanent?
    This hope of mine, when will it be?

    Oh, when will I stay happily in the forest,
    a sage wearing a torn robe, dressed in ocher,
    unselfish, with no need for hope,
    with greed, hate, and delusion destroyed?

    Oh, when will I stay alone in the wood,
    fearless, discerning this body as impermanent,
    a nest of death and disease,
    oppressed by death and old age; when will it be?

    Oh, when will I live, having grasped the sharp sword of wisdom
    and cut the creeper of craving that tangles around everything,
    the mother of fear, the bringer of suffering?
    When will it be?

    Oh, when will I, seated on the lion’s throne,
    swiftly grasp the sword of the sages,
    forged by wisdom, of fiery might,
    and swiftly break Māra and his army? When will it be?

    Oh, when will I be seen striving in the assemblies
    by those who are virtuous, poised, respecting the Dhamma,
    seeing things as they are, with faculties subdued?
    When will it be?

    Oh, when will I focus on my own goal at the Mountainfold,
    free of oppression by laziness, hunger, thirst,
    wind, heat, insects, and reptiles?
    When will it be?

    Oh, when will I, serene and mindful,
    understand the four truths,
    that were realized by the great hermit,
    and are so very hard to see? When will it be?

    Oh, when will I, devoted to serenity,
    see with understanding the infinite sights,
    sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts
    as burning? When will it be?

    Oh, when will I not be downcast
    because of criticism,
    nor elated because of praise?
    When will it be?

    Oh when will I discern the aggregates
    and the infinite varieties of phenomena,
    both internal and external, as no more than
    wood, grass, and creepers? When will it be?

    Oh, when will the rain clouds in season
    freshly wet me in my robe in the forest,
    walking the path trodden by the sages?
    When will it be?

    Oh, when will I rise up, intent on attaining the deathless,
    hearing, in the mountain cave,
    the cry of the crested peacock in the forest?
    When will it be?

    Oh, when will I cross the Ganges, Yamunā,
    and Sarasvatī rivers, the Pātāla country,
    and the dangerous Baḷavāmukha sea,
    by psychic power unimpeded? When will it be?

    Oh, when will I be devoted to absorption,
    rejecting entirely the signs of beauty,
    splitting apart desire for sensual stimulation,
    like an elephant that wanders free of ties? When will it be?

    Oh, when will I realize the teaching of the great hermit
    and be content, like a poor person in debt,
    harassed by creditors, who finds a hidden treasure?
    When will it be?

    For many years you begged me,
    “Enough of living in a house for you!”
    Why do you not urge me on, mind,
    now that I’ve gone forth as an ascetic?

    Didn’t you entice me, mind:
    “On the Mountainfold, the birds with colorful wings,
    greeting the thunder, Mahinda’s voice,
    will delight you as you meditate in the forest?”

    'In my family circle, friends, loved ones, and relatives;
    and in the world, sports and play, and sensual pleasures;
    all these I gave up when I entered this life:
    and even then you’re not content with me, mind!

    This is mine alone, it doesn’t belong to others;
    when it is time to don your armor, why lament?
    Reflecting that all this is unstable,
    I went forth, longing for the deathless state.

    The methodical teacher, supreme among people,
    great physician, guide for those who wish to train, said:
    “The mind fidgets like a monkey,
    so it’s very hard to control if you are not free of lust.”

    Sensual pleasures are diverse, sweet, delightful;
    an ignorant ordinary person is bound to them.
    Seeking to be reborn again, they wish for suffering;
    led on by their mind, they’re relegated to hell.

    “Staying in the grove resounding with cries
    of peacocks and herons, and honored by leopards and tigers,
    abandon concern for the body, without fail!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Develop the absorptions and spiritual faculties,
    the powers, awakening factors, and immersion;
    realize the three knowledges in the teaching of the Buddha!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Develop the eightfold path for realizing the deathless,
    emancipating, plunging into the end of all suffering,
    and cleansing all defilements!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Reflect properly on the aggregates as suffering,
    and abandon that from which suffering arises;
    make an end of suffering in this very life!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Properly discern that impermanence is suffering,
    that emptiness is non-self, and that misery is death.
    Uproot the wandering mind!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Bald, unsightly, accursed,
    seek alms amongst families, bowl in hand.
    Devote yourself to the word of the teacher, the great hermit!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Wander the streets well-restrained,
    unattached to families and sensual pleasures,
    like the full moon on a bright night!”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    “Be a wilderness-dweller and an alms-eater,
    one who lives in charnel grounds, a rag-robe wearer,
    one who never lies down, always delighting in ascetic practices.”
    So you used to urge me, mind.

    Mind, when you urge me to the impermanent and unstable,
    you’re acting like someone who plants trees,
    then, when they’re about to fruit,
    wishes to cut down the very same trees.

    Incorporeal mind, far-traveler, lone-wanderer:
    I won’t do your bidding any more.
    Sensual pleasures are suffering, painful, and very dangerous;
    I’ll wander with my mind focused only on quenching.

    I didn’t go forth due to bad luck or shamelessness,
    or due to a whim or banishment,
    nor for the sake of a livelihood;
    it was because I agreed to the promise you made, mind.

    “Having few wishes, abandoning disparagement,
    the stilling of suffering: these are praised by good people.”
    So you used to urge me, mind,
    but now you keep on with your old habits!

    Craving, ignorance, the loved and unloved,
    pretty sights, pleasant feelings,
    and the delightful kinds of sensual stimulation:
    I’ve vomited them all, and I won’t swallow them back.

    I’ve done your bidding everywhere, mind!
    For many births, I’ve done nothing to upset you,
    yet this self-made chain is your show of gratitude!
    For a long time I’ve transmigrated in the suffering you’ve created.

    Only you, mind, make a brahmin;
    you make an aristocrat or a royal hermit.
    Sometimes we become traders or workers;
    and life as a god is also on account of you.

    You alone make us demons;
    because of you we’re born in hell.
    Then sometimes we become animals,
    and life as a ghost is also on account of you.

    Come what may, you won’t betray me again,
    dazzling me with your ever-changing display!
    You play with me like I’m mad—
    but how have I ever failed you, mind?

    In the past my mind wandered
    how it wished, where it liked, as it pleased.
    Now I’ll carefully guide it,
    as a trainer with a hook guides a rutting elephant.

    The teacher willed that this world appear to me
    as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
    Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
    carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.

    Things have changed, mind!
    Nothing could make me return to your control!
    I’ve gone forth in the teaching of the great hermit,
    those like me don’t come to ruin.

    Mountains, oceans, rivers, the earth;
    the four directions, the intermediate directions, below and in the sky;
    the three realms of existence are all impermanent and troubled—
    where can you go to find happiness, mind?

    Mind, what will you do to someone who has made the ultimate commitment?
    Nothing could make me a follower under your control, mind;
    there’s no way I’d touch a bellows with a mouth open at each end;
    curse this mortal frame flowing with nine streams!

    You’ve ascended the mountain peak, full of nature’s beauty,
    frequented by boars and antelopes,
    a grove sprinkled with fresh water in the rains;
    and there you’ll be happy in your cave-home.

    Peacocks with beautiful necks and crests,
    colorful tail-feathers and wings,
    crying out at the resounding thunder:
    they’ll delight you as you meditate in the forest.

    When the sky has rained down, and the grass is four inches high,
    and the grove is full of flowers like a cloud,
    in the mountain cleft, like the fork of a tree, I’ll lie;
    it will be as soft as cotton-buds.

    I’ll act as a master does:
    let whatever I get be enough for me.
    And that’s why I’ll make you as supple
    as a tireless worker makes a cat-skin bag.

    I’ll act as a master does:
    let whatever I get be enough for me.
    I’ll control you with my energy,
    as a skilled trainer controls an elephant with a hook.

    Now that you’re well-tamed and reliable,
    I can use you, like a trainer uses a straight-running horse,
    to practice the path so full of grace,
    cultivated by those who take care of their minds.

    I shall strongly fasten you to a meditation subject,
    as an elephant is tied to a post with firm rope.
    You’ll be well-guarded by me, well-developed by mindfulness,
    and unattached to rebirth in all states of existence.

    You’ll use understanding to cut the follower of the wrong path,
    curb them by practice, and settle them on the right path.
    And when you have seen the cause of suffering arise and pass away,
    you’ll be an heir to the greatest teacher.

    Under the sway of the four distortions, mind,
    you dragged me around like a bull in a pit;
    but now you won’t associate with the great sage of compassion,
    the cutter of fetters and bonds?

    Like a deer roaming free in the colorful forest,
    I’ll ascend the lovely mountain wreathed in cloud,
    and rejoice to be on that hill, free of folk—
    there is no doubt you’ll perish, mind.

    The men and women who live under your will and command,
    whatever pleasure they experience,
    they are ignorant and fall under Māra’s control;
    loving life, they’re your disciples, mind.

Dīgha Nikāya
Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta (Longer Discourse on Mindfulness) DN 22 (DN ii 290)
Translated by Bhikkhu Akiñcano


  • ...

    [cittānupassanā - contemplating the mind]

    And which, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu who dwells as one who contemplates mind within mind?

    Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu knows a mind with passion as mind with passion; he knows a mind without passion as a mind without passion; he knows a mind with ill-will as a mind without ill-will; he knows a mind without ill-will as a mind without ill-will; he knows a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion; he knows a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; he knows a stuck together mind as a stuck together mind; he knows a scattered mind as a scattered mind; he knows an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind; he knows an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind; he knows a mind with something superior as a mind with something superior; he knows a mind without anything superior as a mind without anything superior; he knows a composed mind as a composed mind; he knows an uncomposed mind as an uncomposed mind; he knows a liberated mind as a liberated mind; he knows an unliberated mind as an unliberated mind.

    Thus he dwells as one who contemplates mind within mind internally, or he dwells as one who contemplates mind within mind externally, or he dwells as one who contemplates mind within mind internally-&-externally; or he dwells as one who contemplates the nature of arising in the mind, or he dwells as one who contemplates the nature of vanishing in the mind, or he dwells as one who contemplates the nature of arising-&-vanishing in the mind. Or else the mindfulness that “There is mind” is present. He dwells with enough knowledge and reflexion, independent, and not assuming anything in the world. In this way, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells as one who contemplates mind within mind.
    ...
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📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts? I’m limiting my questions this week so the texts provide most of the groundwork for discussion.
  • These three verses from Thag 19.1 are very fascinating to me:
    • ...
      Only you, mind, make a brahmin;
      you make an aristocrat or a royal hermit.
      Sometimes we become traders or workers;
      and life as a god is also on account of you.

      You alone make us demons;
      because of you we’re born in hell.
      Then sometimes we become animals,
      and life as a ghost is also on account of you.

      Come what may, you won’t betray me again,
      dazzling me with your ever-changing display!
      You play with me like I’m mad—
      but how have I ever failed you, mind?
      ...
    Just such unique description of the mind across the different manifestations.
  • Applying cittassa nimitta “sign of the mind” of AN 6.68 to the excerpt from DN 22, would it make sense to say that the sign (or token) is available on account of thought? Passionate thoughts a sign of a “mind with passion”? (See SN 47.8)
Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:

(In the coming weeks we will explore mano in a similar fashion, followed eventually by a week where we treat both terms together. I would like to limit this week to citta as best we can.)
sunnat
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by sunnat »

A nice selection from, the dhammapada chapter on the mind.

An unsteady mind, wavering quivering, going from here to there is not good but it's opposite of steady is good. It's steadied by restraint, by guarding, by wisdom. Which makes the notion of straight a bit odd. The fletchers job is really to attach fletches to arrow shafts which means the arrows don't waver on their path to the goal. The fletcher doesn't straighten arrows. The fletcher makes it so the arrow flies true to the goal. Thus the mind is controlled.

(a result of understanding it this way is that upright, as in 'sit upright' when meditating really should be 'sit steadily' or 'make no intentional movement'. Thus including those with scoliosis, or otherwise unable to have a straight back, in the endeavour of sitting meditation.)
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:38 pm Thoughts? I’m limiting my questions this week so the texts provide most of the groundwork for discussion.
  • These three verses from Thag 19.1 are very fascinating to me:
    • ...
      Only you, mind, make a brahmin;
      you make an aristocrat or a royal hermit.
      Sometimes we become traders or workers;
      and life as a god is also on account of you.

      You alone make us demons;
      because of you we’re born in hell.
      Then sometimes we become animals,
      and life as a ghost is also on account of you.

      Come what may, you won’t betray me again,
      dazzling me with your ever-changing display!
      You play with me like I’m mad—
      but how have I ever failed you, mind?
      ...
    Just such unique description of the mind across the different manifestations.
  • Applying cittassa nimitta “sign of the mind” of AN 6.68 to the excerpt from DN 22, would it make sense to say that the sign (or token) is available on account of thought? Passionate thoughts a sign of a “mind with passion”? (See SN 47.8)
Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:

(In the coming weeks we will explore mano in a similar fashion, followed eventually by a week where we treat both terms together. I would like to limit this week to citta as best we can.)
Many thanks for this week's efforts, SDC. I can guess how much time and thought this takes, and I'm grateful.

I'm also rather daunted by the sheer scale of this one. Not only is the topic huge and the references frequent, there is also the extremely difficult issue of the English word "mind" meaning something quite different from the Pali words citta and manas; which also, apparently, are used inconsistently. So I'll restrict myself, at least initially, to the above quote.

My first thought is around the idea of mind "making" us into something. Without opening up the Great Rebirth Debate, this can be taken to mean that our thoughts and other mental activities have the kammic power to cause some kind of rebirth in some definable state in the future, possibly the post-mortem future. We habitually think in a particular way, and after we die we go to hell or become an animal. Equally, it can mean that our mental outlook here-and-now makes us into those things, which are concomitant mental states rather than destinations. Behaving in a particular way is bestial, or divine, and the one who behaves that way is rightly called an animal or a god.

I'm also intrigued by the interplay with agency here. The first two verses, and part of the third, treat the mind as an external factor, something which is not only outside of our control, but also controls us. Of course, it's an aspect of anatta, but finding it here outside of a list of khandhā is quite powerful. We might be getting used to thinking that our bodies go their own way and lose hair, teeth, and vitality without our permission, but most people think of their mind as being more uniquely "them". If the mind goes its own way as well, then that raises the standard philosophical questions about how we know what truth is. How can we trust anything - even our understanding of the Dhamma - if our mind is doing stuff like betraying us, dragging the world around, playing with us?

And yet the mind can be controlled. This raises the question "by what?" Presumably the lack of agency and the above idea of the mind as culpably tormenting us raises the doubt that any mental factor might be acting against us. Whatever it is that is the source of the rejoicing in the final verse above (and more poetically in Thag. 19.1) might also be distrusted. Why is the prompting of the mind to do good actually trusted? Why do we ever believe it can be straightened when we know that it can make us see straight where there is crooked, and vice versa?

If I had to answer this, it would be around the idea of "the voice of another":
The methodical teacher, supreme among people,
great physician, guide for those who wish to train, said:
“The mind fidgets like a monkey,
so it’s very hard to control if you are not free of lust.”
The attenuation of desire is attempted first. Only when there is some success in meditation or mindfulness as a result of this do we realise that the mind as controller is subject to our control.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

In this context of the dynamics of mind, I was struck by the energetic physicality of this imagery from Thag 19.1:
"Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching"
and
"...plunging into the end of suffering."
Going with this a bit, it contrasts with the stereotypical physical image of a monk in meditative stillness.
The skillful energetics of the mind need not be constrained by the stillness of the body.
Its unskillful energy is often not constrained by a good posture either! -- but it can help.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by sunnat »

Some further thoughts on stillness.


When one trains to make no intentional movement, the underlying tendencies with regard to sensations, feelings, assert themselves and there is subtle and gross movement that can be noted and one perceives the conditioning. If one is constantly averse to not sitting straight or clings to the notion one must sit straight, constantly engaged in correcting the posture one encourages, multiplies, the underlying tendencies and there is no progress. Therefore as the opposite of unstable is stable, wavering and unwavering, and so on, to take the notion of a fish out of water flopping about as the unstable mind, suggesting that stability is a straight arrow negates that The Buddha as a youth was an accomplished archer and understood that an unfletched arrow, no matter how straight, will be unstable in flight and the Fletchers job is to take straight arrows and attach fletches or fins thus making an arrow that will be stable on the way to the goal.


Therefore uju in this (and with regards to posture) does not mean straight but right or correct which is stable in the sense of the meditators relationship to kamma resultants.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by pegembara »

Talaputa is fascinating.
Oh, when will I, devoted to serenity,
see with understanding the infinite sights,
sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts
as burning? When will it be?
Exactly like the Fire Sermon. Samatha-vipassana in action.
Oh when will I discern the aggregates
and the infinite varieties of phenomena,
both internal and external, as no more than
wood, grass, and creepers? When will it be?
Viewing phenomena as empty.
Sensual pleasures are diverse, sweet, delightful;
an ignorant ordinary person is bound to them.
Seeking to be reborn again, they wish for suffering;
led on by their mind, they’re relegated to hell.

“Staying in the grove resounding with cries
of peacocks and herons, and honored by leopards and tigers,
abandon concern for the body, without fail!”
So you used to urge me, mind.
Looks like he was a forest monk.
I’ve done your bidding everywhere, mind!
For many births, I’ve done nothing to upset you,
yet this self-made chain is your show of gratitude!
For a long time I’ve transmigrated in the suffering you’ve created.

Only you, mind, make a brahmin;
you make an aristocrat or a royal hermit.
Sometimes we become traders or workers;
and life as a god is also on account of you.

You alone make us demons;
because of you we’re born in hell.
Then sometimes we become animals,
and life as a ghost is also on account of you.
Mind is (mis)chief. Creator of worlds and beings. He is talking to "himself" or mind as if an other.
The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial
.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.
Another reference to emptiness. Not of the aggregates like Phena Sutta but the world.
Now that you’re well-tamed and reliable,
I can use you, like a trainer uses a straight-running horse,
to practice the path so full of grace,
cultivated by those who take care of their minds.

I shall strongly fasten you to a meditation subject,
as an elephant is tied to a post with firm rope.

You’ll be well-guarded by me, well-developed by mindfulness,
and unattached to rebirth in all states of existence.

The men and women who live under your will and command,
whatever pleasure they experience,
they are ignorant and fall under Māra’s control;
loving life, they’re your disciples, mind.
Mind is Mara that needs to be controlled using sense restraint. Chapanna Sutta - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

But also the Saviour that urges walking the Path.
“Staying in the grove resounding with cries
of peacocks and herons, and honored by leopards and tigers,
abandon concern for the body, without fail!”
So you used to urge me, mind
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by SDC »

sunnat wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:55 pm The fletcher doesn't straighten arrows. The fletcher makes it so the arrow flies true to the goal. Thus the mind is controlled.
Thanks for this clarification. It’s a good analogy. Obviously you can never make it so there was never suffering to begin with, but from now on the mind will be straight.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm Many thanks for this week's efforts, SDC. I can guess how much time and thought this takes, and I'm grateful.
Glad you like it! Initially I was looking for a “light” week and was only going to post the Dhp verses, but then it grew from there.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm I'm also rather daunted by the sheer scale of this one. Not only is the topic huge and the references frequent, there is also the extremely difficult issue of the English word "mind" meaning something quite different from the Pali words citta and manas; which also, apparently, are used inconsistently.
I think what has been inconsistent is how it has been interpreted subsequent to scripture. A big part of what I’m trying to do, especially when picking discourses for a thematic presentation, is to find descriptions that are explicit, so instead of expanding and diversifying the meaning, we can go backwards and get to something practical. Especially when it comes to citta there is this tendency to infer that the scope is unavoidably expansive and highly technical, yet that is rarely found in the suttas that way. Just look how straightforward Tālapuṭa speaks about it.

Additionally, I found quite a few suttas where mano and citta appear together and in some cases the same sentence, so there is clearly a distinction that history has had a difficult time working out. Only when the terms are right there on top of each other is there going to be a chance to see how they differ. Hopefully there is enough there to work out some of the other consistencies.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm If the mind goes its own way as well, then that raises the standard philosophical questions about how we know what truth is.
I think that depends on what is valued. If someone values comfort and safety, getting what one wants, not losing what they have, not getting what they don’t, then truth is whatever maintains that. The nature of choice is very significant in this case because the wrong choice might not yield a favorable result. I think citta is found in these different conditions and how you behave according to it depends on what you hope the outcome will be. Oh right now I have a mind of passion, can I trust it? Depends on what you want. If you want to aim for freedom from suffering then you can trust that the passionate mind is there and since I value not acting in an unwholesome manner, then that mind of passion must yield to the choice not to act on account of passion. Someone who does not have that aspiration is guided by desire; pressured to act according to the balance that maintains that worldly comfort.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

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JohnK wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 11:59 pm In this context of the dynamics of mind, I was struck by the energetic physicality of this imagery from Thag 19.1:
"Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching"
and
"...plunging into the end of suffering."
Going with this a bit, it contrasts with the stereotypical physical image of a monk in meditative stillness.
I The skillful energetics of the mind need not be constrained by the stillness of the body.
Its unskillful energy is often not constrained by a good posture either! -- but it can help.
Good post! Although it does seems as though Tālapuṭa was reflecting on his thoughts prior to his arahantship, it is very refreshing that he was not afraid to admit that that is how he felt. There have been a few instances in the suttas that talk about practicing for future generations and this is certainly one, I think. As an arahant this is what he thought we be relevant for others to hear. I think these verses are tremendous.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

Difficult studying session. Few reflections:
For many years you begged me,
“Enough of living in a house for you!”
Why do you not urge me on, mind,
now that I’ve gone forth as an ascetic?
Ascetics go wandering by not living in a house due to its impermanent nature, while householders try to maintain a house seeing the insecurity in wandering.
I shall strongly fasten you to a meditation subject,
as an elephant is tied to a post with firm rope.
You’ll be well-guarded by me, well-developed by mindfulness,
and unattached to rebirth in all states of existence.
Can we consider fastening the mind to a meditation subject an act of giving the mind a house to stop it from wandering?

The acts of wandering and fastening have both positive and negative connotations and seem to be interchangeable. Why an ascetic is not a house holder trying to maintain wandering, or why a householder is guilty of preventing wandering by maintaining a house (something the ascetic attempts to do) is not clear.
The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.
The world, as a theater, can be taken to be willed by the teacher, or to be the makings of the mind. This seems relevant to how to deal with signs. To take the world as willed by the teacher is to be attentive to what could be a sign from the teacher. To take the world as the making of the mind, then the teacher is simply another phenomena that appears in the mind and it would be impossible to distinguish between deceptive signs and true signs. There can be no intellectual answer to this, but it is conducive to the development of intuition and faith.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Week of May 16, 2021)

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Bundokji wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:14 am Difficult studying session.
Thanks for those reflections, Bundokji. I did intend for it to be a bit a challenge, and perhaps when we revisit this idea of mind in the weeks to come it will be a bit less tedious.

Yes, good observation, SN 47.8 and AN 6.68 described signs as being very important. It seems there is much that doesn’t appear directly as phenomena, but it is the phenomena that have the marks and tokens of either wholesome or unwholesome directions. I wanted to include MN 20, but it was packed enough as it is, but:
MN 20 wrote:
Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome. When he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside.
It seems that wrongly or rightly attending to signs is what what will determine the tilt of mind.

MN 20 is also a great example of where we find a clear distinction between mano and citta, although I’d like to hold off on getting to that here.
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Weeks of May 16 & 23, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Working with Thag 19.1.
First there is the "Oh, when" sequence of 16 verses; noble distress, ending with "Oh, when will I realize the teaching..."

Then at 17, he begins to address the mind directly, here with a key question: "Why do you not urge me on, mind, now that I've gone forth..?" Do we ever get a clear answer to this key question?
In verses 18 -- 30 he continues to address the mind directly, recalling the various past urging of the mind (presumably wholesome) that pointed him to the teachings and to going forth.

Then at 31 we see an apparent abrupt shift to the present behavior of the mind which does not seem so wholesome: "...you urge me to the impermanent and unstable." At 32: "I won't do your bidding anymore." (But isn't this last quote itself a wholesome urging of the mind?)

At 34: "So you used to urge me, mind, but now you keep on with your old habits!" -- these "old habits" presumably being the ones before the wholesome urgings, that is, the beginning-less habits of craving and becoming. At 39: "you won't betray me again" -- seems like betrayal at two times: the oldest habits of craving/becoming and the post-going forth betrayal (which we still don't have a good explanation for -- except the general one, that the mind is essentially unreliable).

At 40: "Now I'll carefully guide it" -- to overcome its unreliability. (Again, this last quote seems itself to be a wholesome urging of the mind, in this case, to overcome the unreliability of the mind -- and notice it is still in future tense, which makes it sound like more of an urging than an accomplishment.)

As the text concludes, he continues addressing the mind, saying what the future will hold: "I'll make you as supple as...a cat-skin bag," "I'll control you with my energy," "You'll be well-guarded by me."

No conclusion here, just an attempt to stay close to the text.

While there is no clear answer (for me) to the question of why the mind stopped its wholesome urging after the going forth, it may be that the prior urging was in the abstract, not within the actual challenges of the path. So the mind senses the possibility of freedom or understands it at an intellectual level, wants it, but still has the underlying tendencies in practice which lean the other way.
The latter portion of the text, where he admonishes the mind, still strike me as the mind's wholesome urging -- the mind talking to itself?
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍 By mind the world is dragged: A compilation on citta. (Weeks of May 16 & 23, 2021)

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JohnK wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:12 pm While there is no clear answer (for me) to the question of why the mind stopped its wholesome urging after the going forth, it may be that the prior urging was in the abstract, not within the actual challenges of the path. So the mind senses the possibility of freedom or understands it at an intellectual level, wants it, but still has the underlying tendencies in practice which lean the other way.
The latter portion of the text, where he admonishes the mind, still strike me as the mind's wholesome urging -- the mind talking to itself?
Sure. A grappling of sorts between valuing desire and valuing freedom. In both cases the mind wants something, but the former is a preservation of a mechanism for pleasure while the latter is the destruction of that mechanism. In either case the mind would be satisfied, but it seems the mind would take the quickest route especially when taken to the forest. In the world the mind wanted the forest because it was pleasing to imagine being free from suffering, but once exposed to the hardship of restraint, the mind wants the path of least resistance. Tālapuṭa seems to have understood that the resolve and determination would only taken as valuable when it was convenient and that being beckoned back to sensuality was simply the mind’s inclination for an easy resolution. The trust and faith needed to be placed in possibly for freedom no matter what the mind was doing and that is how he was able to tame it.
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