🟧 Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

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SDC
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 pm Dearest SDC, I find this sutta study, very useful, in expanding my understanding, so thank you, but if you think it is inappropriate to drag in another sutta, pl. ignore my comment.
With love :candle:
It isn’t inappropriate at all and glad to have you back this week!!
JohnK
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Hello Pulsar.
Let me address just two of your related questions at the moment.
Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 pm JohnK wrote
SDC wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:07 pm
This is an interesting sutta: SN 36.31
Thanks for pointing to that sutta.
Interesting that joy and happiness based on sense contact, while presumably lesser, is not described there as unwholesome.
Where in the sutta is it described "as not unwholesome?"
To clarify, I did not say that the sutta described joy/happiness based on sense contact "as not unwholesome." I was stating the this sutta does not specifically say it is unwholesome.
Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:34 pm You also wrote:
It also does not say that one who is liberated no longer experiences joy and happiness based on sense contact.
Where in the sutta does it say that? Pl clarify.
As above, I was saying what the sutta does not say -- what it does not address.

Of course, one sutta can't say everything that may be relevant, so a sutta may leave open some unaddressed possibilities -- as I have suggested -- then it makes sense to check other suttas --as you have offered.
Understanding that a sutta may be better understood in the larger context of other suttas, nevertheless, I am finding it interesting to try to see what a specific sutta being studied actually says and does not say -- rather than trying to understand it by filling in the blanks based on my assumptions about the teachings -- my assumptions may or may not be correct.

I'll give some thought to your other specific concerns when I get a chance.
:anjali:

PS: Maha Kassapa says numerous times in the Theragatha: "Those rocky crags refresh me."
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Pulsar
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

JohnK wrote
To clarify, I did not say that the sutta described joy/happiness based on sense contact "as not unwholesome." I was stating the this sutta does not specifically say it is unwholesome.
Pulsar wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:34 pm
You also wrote:
It also does not say that one who is liberated no longer experiences joy and happiness based on sense contact.
Where in the sutta does it say that? Pl clarify.
As above, I was saying what the sutta does not say -- what it does not address.
true you did not say those things. I was fascinated by your musings, and was kind of engaged in a brainstorming myself. It helps me to listen to someone like you reflect on a sutta.
Your musings, brought to my mind MN 137, which made a distinction between householder and renunciate (soteriologically), which I thought was similar to the distinction between unwholesome and wholesome. The bottom line, your musings helped me straighten my own thinking.
So thank you. :candle:
PS "Those rocky crags refresh us." too.
Pulsar
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

SDC wrote regarding "the ship that sailed" ...
I made it up on the spot and terrified myself!
and upon reflection it terrified me too. Somewhere in the canon does it not say "work towards your redemption as if your very head was on fire"
Thank you for a very nice sutta selection! your hard work is very much appreciated.
With love :candle:
JohnK
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:02 am ...Your musings, brought to my mind MN 137...
Interesting you brought that up.
Right here on my desk is a diagram I made recently just to clarify/solidify some of MN137.
There is a column for the things to be relied on and a column for the things to be transcended (surmounted) -- they are connected with arrows showing what is relied on to transcend what.
The first column of what is to be relied on had three items (each of the noble/renunciate items); the second column had 5 items (the three worldly items and noble distress and noble happiness).
Because you brought this sutta up, I looked at it again and have altered the diagram -- I had missed something important!
I added noble equanimity to the items to be transcended, and I added atammayata (Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as non-identification; Thanissaro Bhikkhu as non-fashioning) to be relied upon to transcend noble equanimity. So, thank you.

What does MN137 not say?
It does not specifically say that the transcended items are somehow forever "gone" from experience. I'm suggesting the possibility that, in transcending, what is gone is the identification and fashioning associated with them.
(An aside: BB translates these items as "positions of beings;" TB as "emotions," atammayata falling outside of these headings.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Pulsar
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

JohnK wrote
Right here on my desk is a diagram I made recently just to clarify/solidify some of MN137
After wading thru the ocean of suttas, MN 137 turned out to be the one sutta that revealed the hidden gem, explains the clear demarcation between sensory and non-sensory world.
In the 8-fold path the right meditator during Samma sati and Samma samadhi, leaves the sensory for the non-sensory.
How I understand it is, one has to crumple or dissolve the dwelling in sensory domain to approach the non-sensory. This is where ariyans constantly dwell.
Nothing pulls at us at this point, gravity of craving loses its grip.

But this is not an easy task, sometimes you win and at other times when inconsistent in the practice, we fall back into the grips of sensory, and Mara or temptress, or covetousness, or aversion,
does with us as it pleases.
The magic of MN 137 is, it reveals what true insight is... true insight is when one loses contact with the sensory world, soteriologically.
In other words, what the sutta identifies as the
  • Renununciate
is extremely important to us.
According to this sutta, I conclude a monk engaged in sensory activity is a householder, and a layman engaged in the right meditation (of Samma sati and Samma samadhi) is a renunciate.
This is the most helpful piece of info I derived from this sutta.
Do you see it as I see it?
You don't have to put on robes to be a renunciate. You merely have to remove
the dressings of the sensory world to be a renunciate.

I also found via this sutta, that Metta bhavana can be done as the householder (when I think that I extend metta towards you), which implies I believe in the notion of "I" and the notion of "you".
  • I am still in the grip of aggregates while doing Metta.
If I shed notion of "self" that is the notion of "I" and "you", (I am not gripped by the aggregates) there is not a need to strive to do Metta.
  • There is an infinite ocean of
    dependent risings, you or the process (sorry for the pronoun) automatically becomes grace.
No more need for striving. You are the heart of Metta. You are the ariyan, even though temporarily.
Don't let my words trip you. Look beyond my words and find the meaning, I know you can, you don't seem to be the kind that trips on words, and pick up disputes. But pl. dispute if you disagree. It is a joy to connect with you. Thank you too SDC for giving us this opportunity.
Let me stop here, take a pause, tell me what you think?
I shall visit attamayata in a moment.
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Pulsar
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

John K wrote
added noble equanimity to the items to be transcended, and I added atammayata (Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as non-identification; Thanissaro Bhikkhu as non-fashioning) to be relied upon to transcend noble equanimity. So, thank you.

What does MN137 not say?
It does not specifically say that the transcended items are somehow forever "gone" from experience. I'm suggesting the possibility that, in transcending, what is gone is the identification and fashioning associated with them.
(An aside: BB translates these items as "positions of beings;" TB as "emotions," atammayata falling outside of these headings.)
Your observations are all very true. 
A literal analysis gives us: a (not), tam (that), maya (to make, create, fabricate, or produce), and ta (the state of being or suffix "-ness").
Thus, atammayata may be translated as
  • "the state of not being made up by,
    or made up from, that (thing or condition).
    It indicates an absence of craving/thirst,
    absence of views,
    and an absence of conceit."
It describes the awakened state of Arahant, or the fully awakened being.
In simpler words Atammayata for the puthujjana would be,
  • "Whatever way you think it is, it is always other than that"
It is a bit like, while one is locked within the aggregates or the prison of maya (ie without insight), whatever is thought of, is a falsity, happy you brought it up. Every reminder of concepts like these, brings us closer to the freedom from suffering. Be well!
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Re: 📍Delicate and Intoxicated, Sukhumālasutta AN 3.39 (Week of May 30, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:26 pm Thank you too SDC for giving us this opportunity.
Great to see such an interesting exchange!
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