🟧 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
Pulsar
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Dan74 wrote
I don't find it so scary. Most, if not all of us, are bound to be reborn. And how can one expect to truly let go of what one has not yet fully tasted? 
I find many Buddhists are terrified of life. But never having embraced life, how can one begin to relinquish its pleasures? We think we can just skip that stage and mistake our fear of life for renunciation, but I don't think it works that way. Those who are stuck with fear and aversion to life and its samsaric charms can never free themselves from it. 
Only those who have openly drunk from the cup and grew disenchanted can freely toss it away.
Or so it seems to me.
I don't find it so scary. 
I did not say life is scary in the sense you imply, that I cower in a corner due to my fear, but presented the way you did "This is my last whatever"  birdsong or coffee it sounded scary to me, 
  • momentarily.
Greed scares me, because Buddha taught greed or craving leads to suffering. It is outlined in DO.
I did not say I was frozen with fear, after reading those silly lines.
Kajjaniya sutta speaks of this very phenomenon, SN 22.79. I summarize it because this week's sutta study is not about it. 
The basic message is
"Monks! don't get chewed up by mental proliferation, thinking of the past, the future etc"
Original Buddha's teaching was not about proliferation but about engagement in the 8-fold path, for instance in Samma-Sati, the advice is to remove the mind from feeling.
Poetry you quoted is an exaggeration of feeling, not conducive to release from suffering.
Reading "lines like that" leads one to proliferate  "this is me, this is my life" "this is my coffee"  sort of like this is my wonderful life, and grasp it. What happens? 
  • I fall sick?  birds die? coffee gets wiped out due to an invasion by a coffee pathogen.
Imagine the despair it creates.
Never mind! Many suttas constantly repeat "Do not conceive"
Your claim
I find many Buddhists are terrified of life. But never having embraced life
have you explored the life of many buddhists? To dispute your claim, is a distraction to the chosen sutta study.
A proper answer to that accusation will force me to bring in multiple suttas. Only three days are left.
I don't want to disrupt the discussion on burning
"It would be better, bhikkhus, for the eye faculty to be lacerated by a red-hot iron pin burning, blazing'
Let us stick close to the week's teaching. If at all I would prefer if someone dragged me into a conversation on origination of suffering, which is the core of "this sutta"
You write 
Most, if not all of us, are bound to be reborn.
Are you sure of this? The goal is Nibbana. If most of us do not reach that goal, I hope at least some of us on this thread succeed in lessening our suffering in this lifetime.
The learning is gradual. Remember the sutta on
the little bit of soil trapped within a fingernail?
You wrote 
And how can one expect to truly let go of what one has not yet fully tasted?
You appear to be proposing things that go directly against Buddha's teaching. SN 12.66 writes
"Life is a bronze cup of wine, having a fine color, aroma and taste but it is mixed with poison."
Sutta implies only fools drink from it. Wise person stays away from it knowing that it is poisoned.
Your advice to us to get drunk with that wine. Should we? I think not. 
Dearest SDC, forgive me for quoting other suttas. 
It is morning here, sun arrives, birds sing, aroma of coffee fills the air,
yet i know all this is fleeting.
With love :candle:
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:56 am
SDC wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:17 am Thoughts?
  • To what extent would one have to "stand tied" to the gratification for this description to apply? Does it apply to those who have not developed any sense restraint or just to those who were unable to handle the shock of death?
Yes, given the graphic nature of the descriptions, this question really stands out for me. We really need to avoid something, so what is that something? :thinking:

The phrase "in the sign or in the features" suggests to me that we are not talking here about the whole sphere or scope of each sense, but to particular things that arise within that sphere: objects of that sense. And within that, we have a whole range of different relationships to it. At one extreme, there is an addiction-like attachment to objects, when we obsessively feel that we can't do without them and frequently dwell upon them. At the other extreme, a mild preference for them, a wish that they remain for longer and don't go away just yet. (To get a sense of this, I'm thinking about something like extreme sexual and romantic obsession at the first extreme; and fleeting pleasure like the scent of a flower, or birdsong, at the second...)

How far along that spectrum does the phrase "grasping the sign through the features" denote?

And is there a difference between this "grasping the sign through the features" and "standing tied"? Are they synonyms? Does the "standing" bit mean that the grasping has somehow become permanent? If so, it presumably means that the contact with the object is intermittent, but the tendency to grasp is always there. Likewise with the "tied" bit. There is a difference between grasping something, which still retains the possibility of agency - one can cease to grasp, let go - and being tied to it, which appears to rule out agency and spells big trouble.

Either way, a very scary sutta which provokes the right kinds of thought...

EDIT: A further thought on this. Hell or the animal realm as destinations are dependent upon two things: the standing tied, and dying in that condition. This leads us in the direction of one's last thoughts determining a post mortem state, but how likely is it that the two will actually coincide? If I'm obsessed with my new car and step back to admire it and get hit by a bus, then that seems to combine the two conditions. But if I often think of my lovely new car but that's not foremost in my mind as I expire with pneumonia, does that mean that the two conditions do not coincide? Or is an underlying tendency to mechanophilia enough to take me to those bad places if I have not shaken myself free by the end of my life?
Hi Sam,

Thought-provoking post. Another sutta to consider on the topic of signs:
MN 20 wrote:…Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is pursuing the higher mind, from time to time he should give attention to five signs. What are the five?

I “Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome. When he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice might knock out, remove, and extract a coarse peg by means of a fine one, so too…when a bhikkhu gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome…his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated….Continue Reading…
I tend to think the description in this week’s selection is a very general treatment, just like we find here in MN 20. There are signs that, if wrongly attended, give rise to unwholesome, but there is always the option to attend to something other than that sign. While thinking of a beautiful car upon death wouldn’t be an automatic sentence to hell, it seems that unless the person had developed the capability to be comfortable with thoughts of impermanence, renunciation and restraint, they may lack the capability to find any comforting discernment when the body is breaking. Without that development, the body, me, will die having preferred the pleasure of the senses more than an understanding of their nature. This is where the simile of the mango tree really hits hard:
MN 54 wrote:…Householder, suppose there were a dense grove not far from some village or town, within which there was a tree laden with fruit but none of its fruit had fallen to the ground. Then a man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and he entered the grove and saw the tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I know how to climb a tree, so let me climb this tree, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. Then a second man came needing fruit, seeking fruit, wandering in search of fruit, and taking a sharp axe, he too entered the grove and saw that tree laden with fruit. Thereupon he thought: ‘This tree is laden with fruit but none of its fruit has fallen to the ground. I do not know how to climb a tree, so let me cut this tree down at its root, eat as much fruit as I want, and fill my bag.’ And he did so. What do you think, householder? If that first man who had climbed the tree doesn’t come down quickly, when the tree falls, wouldn’t he break his hand or his foot or some other part of his body, so that he might incur death or deadly suffering because of that?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to fruits on a tree by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, he avoids the equanimity that is diversified, based on diversity, and develops the equanimity that is unified, based on unity, where clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder
The men were “in need” as the sutta says. And I think that means that if sensuality is the preferred means of escape from pain, there is no safe place to go when the senses are taken away. Perhaps “standing tied” means that an escape was never developed.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:02 pm ...
Many thanks for your thoughts on this, SDC. They all make a great deal of sense, but I particularly like these bits:
While thinking of a beautiful car upon death wouldn’t be an automatic sentence to hell, it seems that unless the person had developed the capability to be comfortable with thoughts of impermanence, renunciation and restraint, they may lack the capability to find any comforting discernment when the body is breaking. Without that development, the body, me, will die having preferred the pleasure of the senses more than an understanding of their nature.
The men were “in need” as the sutta says. And I think that means that if sensuality is the preferred means of escape from pain, there is no safe place to go when the senses are taken away. Perhaps “standing tied” means that an escape was never developed.
In the last one, I never really thought about the "in need" angle before. It also crops up in the simile of the water-snake ( :o needing a poisonous critter? Really?!) and in the simile of the heartwood, if I remember correctly. I'm going to look them up, because it's intriguing.

But I especially like the idea that an escape was never developed. Which then leads us on to the idea of how developed does the escape need to be... :anjali: :heart:

EDIT: Having looked up the water-snake and the heartwood, the term is atthika, desiring, aiming at, having as one's purpose.
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:49 pm Stating that it is possible that one will go to one of two destinations makes the example of lacerating pretty harsh. What would warrant such harsh analogy/comparison? Firstly, at the moment of death, if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features, a lower destination is not guaranteed, but only a possibility. Other possibilities remain open such as rebirth in higher realms. Also for a human to imagine himself being reborn as an animal is not as bad as lacerating one of the senses. Hell would be pretty bad, but the logic of impermanence, and being open to other possibilities still makes lacerating sounds radical and unwarranted.

It seems that the vulnerability to being reborn in a lower realm (uncertainty) is what warrants such comparison from the noble one.
Hi B,

If I’m obsessed with eating, I would be safer to have my tongue removed than to die as someone who is still actively engaged in the pursuit of great food. But the removal of the tongue is not a true escape. That is why he advises to hold off and see that, from the beginning, the senses are impermanent, subject to change and not mine.

Perhaps that’s what the reference to “stand tied” means? You’re literally right on top of what the senses require and never developed any room to consider that the body, the senses aren’t there to be mine. Since ignorance is beginningless it will take work to see the senses as not mine, and that they are simply available for use. If no work has been performed, there’s no place for such knowledge and no chance of escape from lower realms at death.
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:50 pm If I’m obsessed with eating, I would be safer to have my tongue removed than to die as someone who is still actively engaged in the pursuit of great food. But the removal of the tongue is not a true escape. That is why he advises to hold off and see that, from the beginning, the senses are impermanent, subject to change and not mine.

Perhaps that’s what the reference to “stand tied” means? You’re literally right on top of what the senses require and never developed any room to consider that the body, the senses aren’t there to be mine. Since ignorance is beginningless it will take work to see the senses as not mine, and that they are simply available for use. If no work has been performed, there’s no place for such knowledge and no chance of escape from lower realms at death.
Hi SDC,

As you have noted, the mind has been treated differently. Had lacerating been literally better, then suicide would be praised by the wise than to continue living in a shameful - unwise way. Also the very act of lacerating is no guarantee that he/she wont be born in a lower realm.

Sometimes religious texts use exaggerations to deter wrong doing, or to trigger seriousness in the practice. Legend says that the second Chan patriarch Dazu Huike cut off his hand to show sincerity. Such stories and examples are not uncommon.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 Leave off Lacerating, The Exposition on Burning (Week of June 20, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

I've been off-grid on-river for a week; checking back in to the study group.
Thanks for this.
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:41 am Even in the case of a person who is free from addiction, there is the habitual background intoxication with the sense-objects... Unknowingly we are intoxicated with the sense-objects and this intoxication forms the background to our experience.
Nice distinction between addiction and intoxication. And, hopefully there is a way to engage the sense world with sobriety. This makes me think of Ajhan Maha Boowa's characterization of a "going out" to things (vs. I assume just allowing in).
A retreat (or formal meditation) can provide a chance to dis-engage, to practice not "going out," and then one returns to a sense world where one must engage, hopefully with some greater sobriety, "under the influence" now of one's meditation practice.
SDC wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:02 pm ...if sensuality is the preferred means of escape from pain, there is no safe place to go when the senses are taken away...
Just quoting because I liked that.
Makes me think that any sense engagement can be an escape from pain (and an intoxication) -- keeping busy, some comfort in knowing there will be a next thing to do -- even if the next thing is some form of "chilling out," often a chilling out that has a sense of mine. Again pointing to a possibility of a sober, non-grasping, "untied" engagement with the sense world.

And just recalling that, per the sutta, the problem is being tied to the gratification (which is presumably why one keeps "going out" to the sense world).

Enough for now.
Working on sober engagement.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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