🟧 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

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🟧 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Finally the “light” week I’ve been promising! A welcome relief I’m sure after last week’s reading from the DN. This week we have the verses of Ven. Sirimaṇḍa from the Theragāthā. Six stanzas that are sure to rouse a sense of urgency. The more I read the many sayings of the senior monastics, the more I take them as having been meant for those of the later generations. These great sages seem to have understood the value in passing these messages through time. They are often inspiring and encouraging, but can also be ominous and intimidating. As I’ve said previously, these are events they wanted the rest of us to know about; how the Dhamma made a difference to the individual.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Theragāthā
Chakkanipāta (Book of Sixes)
Sirimaṇḍattheragāthā (Sirimaṇḍa) Thag 6.13
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • The rain saturates things that are covered up;
    it doesn’t saturate things that are open.
    Therefore you should open up a covered thing,
    so the rain will not saturate it.

    The world is beaten down by death
    and surrounded by old age.
    The dart of craving has laid it low,
    and it’s always fuming with desire.

    The world is beaten down by death,
    caged by old age,
    beaten constantly without respite,
    like a thief being flogged.

    Three things are coming, like a wall of flame:
    death, disease, and old age.
    No power can stand before them,
    and no speed’s enough to flee.

    Don’t waste your day,
    a little or a lot.
    Every night that passes
    shortens your life by that much.

    Walking or standing,
    sitting or lying down:
    your final night draws near;
    you have no time to be careless.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?
  • I quite enjoy these descriptions and find them very helpful. Anyone else agree?
Please discuss. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:01 am Thoughts?
  • I quite enjoy these descriptions and find them very helpful. Anyone else agree?
Please discuss. :smile:
Yes, it's a beautiful set of verses. Just like the Therīgāthā ones you posted, there is something very direct about them. What makes them beautiful and interesting poetry is the contrast between the immediacy and practicality - we are being urged to do something now - and how time-worn the expressions are.

In particular, the rain saturation image. I've seen it used to refer to correct speech; and to emotional honesty and a psychotherapeutic approach to one's inner life. Perhaps it is explained or the context makes it clear in other suttas. But here it comes out of nowhere, little more than an account of how something natural and deteriorating can be acted upon and made better.

I believe you said before that you didn't like Harold Beaver's The Broken Gong. But in it he raises the issue of whether certain expressions and figures of speech were coined by the Buddha himself (and therefore immortalised by the compilers of the canon) or whether he was just using contemporary expressions which have now been recorded. Rain saturation is one of them. To me, it sits at the head of this set of verses as not needing any explanation from Sirimanda, because he knows people used to monsoons and torrential rain and heat would understand it. He just seems to be saying "You must change yourself", and then goes on to say why.

I also like the idea in the 2nd verse of someone having been beaten down and surrounded by what is unpleasant. We would expect them to be a passive subject, just hurting and taking the punishment. But they are still fuming with desire. Even in that situation, we create the conditions for further suffering. It's just like the Ratthapala Sutta, where despite the world being swept away, without shelter, and without ownership, it is still slave to insatiability. The verses contain that one little clue as to how to save ourselves.

Thanks very much, SDC, a great choice.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by The2nd »

SDC wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:00 am :reading:

Theragāthā
Chakkanipāta (Book of Sixes)
Sirimaṇḍattheragāthā (Sirimaṇḍa) Thag 6.13
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • The rain saturates things that are covered up;
    it doesn’t saturate things that are open.
    Therefore you should open up a covered thing,
    so the rain will not saturate it.
    .
Simlar to:
"Household life is confining, a dusty path. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn’t easy, living at home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell."

and

"Mn125 DANTABHUMI:
"...Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’ After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness. And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open, for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation. Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, be ethical and restrained in the monastic code, ...
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

Where should this act of opening up, of having a sense of urgency lead to? It seems that what covers things up is hype! And when this hype subsides, getting closer to death loses its motivational force:
Nothing could form a finer denouement to the insane tragedy of the restless will. Why should the curtain that has just fallen upon defeat and death always rise again upon a new life, a new struggle and a new defeat? How long shall we be lured about this much-ado-about-nothing, this endless pain that only leads to a painful end? When shall we have the courage to fling defiance into the face of the will - to tell it that the loveliness of life is a lie and that the greatest boon of all is death?
Schopenhauer
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

Interestingly, the term for being "covered up" (channa) can also mean "relished" or "given pleasure". So possibly overtones of "What is relished gets rained on"? But the form chādeti doesn't seem to carry this sense.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Thanks again, SDC, for the study group; and thanks to those participating for your perspectives.

The simile of being covered and saturated reminds me of the simile for fourth jhana -- being completely covered by a white cloth and, so, completely suffused with a clear mind purified by equanimity. So one can be saturated/suffused with wholesome qualities and with unwholesome ones. In the current case, first 2 verses, the prime candidate for saturation seems to be desire.

I recall Thanissaro Bhikkhu saying that a desire results in the fabrication of a narrow sense of self and world -- focused on fulfillment of the current desire. So, freedom from desire seems to suggest a broadening, an uncovering, a spaciousness (vs. the narrowing of fabrication).

Also, interesting that the formless states after fourth jhana begin with the infinity of space and consciousness -- a spaciousness, an uncovering perhaps of even the limitations of the white cloth. (?)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:28 am I believe you said before that you didn't like Harold Beaver's The Broken Gong.
I’ve never read it, but I think I had a habit of picking at the work of Ajahn Sucitto (in this case he was the editor), so perhaps I had something negative to say based on an excerpt? Sounds like something I would’ve done a few years back. :embarassed:
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:28 am Rain saturation is one of them. To me, it sits at the head of this set of verses as not needing any explanation from Sirimanda, because he knows people used to monsoons and torrential rain and heat would understand it. He just seems to be saying "You must change yourself", and then goes on to say why.
An excellent point.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:28 am I also like the idea in the 2nd verse of someone having been beaten down and surrounded by what is unpleasant. We would expect them to be a passive subject, just hurting and taking the punishment. But they are still fuming with desire. Even in that situation, we create the conditions for further suffering. It's just like the Ratthapala Sutta, where despite the world being swept away, without shelter, and without ownership, it is still slave to insatiability. The verses contain that one little clue as to how to save ourselves.
Interesting! Death, as a fact, does seem to have the quality of surrounding even the most “wonderful” aspects of life. All those things being subject to change, and death being the change that will bring about the fall of so much of what has been set to stand. Absolutely…the uncertainty of not knowing what old age, disease and death will bring (or what exactly they even mean), coupled with access to temporary relief and delight in it (the gratification) is certainly a recipe for further suffering.

EDIT: iPhone autocorrect got me again
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

The2nd wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:42 am
SDC wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:00 am :reading:

Theragāthā
Chakkanipāta (Book of Sixes)
Sirimaṇḍattheragāthā (Sirimaṇḍa) Thag 6.13
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • The rain saturates things that are covered up;
    it doesn’t saturate things that are open.
    Therefore you should open up a covered thing,
    so the rain will not saturate it.
    .
Simlar to:
"Household life is confining, a dusty path. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn’t easy, living at home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell."

and

"Mn125 DANTABHUMI:
"...Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’ After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness. And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open, for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation. Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, be ethical and restrained in the monastic code, ...
Good finds!

It’s almost as if to say the household life has one shrouded in acquisitions and those are what gets saturated with the rain.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:52 am Where should this act of opening up, of having a sense of urgency lead to? It seems that what covers things up is hype! And when this hype subsides, getting closer to death loses its motivational force:
Nothing could form a finer denouement to the insane tragedy of the restless will. Why should the curtain that has just fallen upon defeat and death always rise again upon a new life, a new struggle and a new defeat? How long shall we be lured about this much-ado-about-nothing, this endless pain that only leads to a painful end? When shall we have the courage to fling defiance into the face of the will - to tell it that the loveliness of life is a lie and that the greatest boon of all is death?
Schopenhauer
Great quote, B!
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

JohnK wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:25 pm The simile of being covered and saturated reminds me of the simile for fourth jhana -- being completely covered by a white cloth and, so, completely suffused with a clear mind purified by equanimity. So one can be saturated/suffused with wholesome qualities and with unwholesome ones. In the current case, first 2 verses, the prime candidate for saturation seems to be desire.
Good call, John! Perhaps the distinction is in whether “I am” is saturated or simply just the body that is not mine. The former seems susceptible to the attitude of wanting things a certain way and latter to the attitude of having left something there to be suffused with equanimity.
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by The2nd »

SDC wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:13 pm
The2nd wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:42 am
SDC wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:00 am :reading:

Theragāthā
Chakkanipāta (Book of Sixes)
Sirimaṇḍattheragāthā (Sirimaṇḍa) Thag 6.13
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • The rain saturates things that are covered up;
    it doesn’t saturate things that are open.
    Therefore you should open up a covered thing,
    so the rain will not saturate it.
    .
Simlar to:
"Household life is confining, a dusty path. Life gone forth is the open air. It isn’t easy, living at home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell."

and

"Mn125 DANTABHUMI:
"...Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’ After some time they give up a large or small fortune, and a large or small family circle. They shave off hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness. And it’s only then that a noble disciple comes out into the open, for gods and humans cling to the five kinds of sensual stimulation. Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, be ethical and restrained in the monastic code, ...
Good finds!

It’s almost as if to say the household life has one shrouded in acquisitions and those are what gets saturated with the rain.
Or to be more specific, the Sheltered life whereby a person uses sensuality as an escape from the basic pain of existence. The more they proliferate into seeking sensual-shelter from the discomfort that needs to be faced openly, the heavier the burden aquired. By using family and sensuality as protection from dukkha, one gets saturated with dukkha,
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by sunnat »

When living in ignorance the always present underlying tendencies in relation to the arrows of life cause the proliferation of misery.
Instead, open up, abandon the ignorance.
Like The Blessed one, drawing his last breath, exhorting: be vigil, don't waste your time, don't be heedless, be aware of the continual decay of all composed things
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Re: 📍 Sirimaṇḍa, Thag 6.13 (Week of July 4, 2021)

Post by SDC »

The2nd wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:05 pm Or to be more specific, the Sheltered life whereby a person uses sensuality as an escape from the basic pain of existence. The more they proliferate into seeking sensual-shelter from the discomfort that needs to be faced openly, the heavier the burden aquired. By using family and sensuality as protection from dukkha, one gets saturated with dukkha,
Well said!
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